India in America’s coils?

This is a piece on the likelihood and the ramifications of the Modi govt signing the so-called “foundational agreements” starting with the Logistics Support Agreement (LSA), published today (March 11, 2016) in thecitizen.in — ‘India’s First Independent Online Daily’, at http://www.thecitizen.in/index.php/NewsDetail/index/1/7109/India-in-Americas-Coils. It is a topic I have been writing about for several years now, and explored in some depth in my new book — ‘Why India is Not a Great Power (Yet)’ as well. But apparently it is not a matter of concern for many people in the country.
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It is a devastating turn of events – the indication that the Bharatiya Janata Party government will soon sign the three so-called “foundational” accords with the United States that Washington has been fiercely pushing in the past decade.

The Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) is first in line. The other two agreements are the CISMOA (Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement) and BECA (Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for geospatial information and data).

LSA, the most significant of these, will permit the military forces of each country to resupply and replenish, and stage operations out of the other’s military air bases, land facilities, and ports. CISMOA will allow integration of the communications networks and systems enabling the two sides, for example, to mount military actions together, assist unit and higher echelon commanders to converse in peacetime and war, using real time communications links, and to share classified data and information. BECA will, in the main, facilitate the exchange of sensitive information picked up by sensors on satellites and other space-based platforms.

There are some tactical military advantages to accepting some of these accords, such as BECA which will, with digitized maps, cue Indian missiles and combat aircraft to target coordinates. But there are many more negative geopolitical and strategic consequences to becoming America’s military ally in all but name. These aspects have not been publicly discussed and the government is getting a free pass to drastically change India’s geostrategics and foreign policy. But first a bit of recent history to contextualize this development.

In India ideology has always been conflated with foreign policy and suggests that elected governments in New Delhi are motivated only minimally by concerns of national interest. Thus, left-of-centre Congress party governments, besides “socialist” policy nostrums and statist solutions for socio-economic ills of the country, have invariably aligned foreign and defence policies with what used to be the Soviet Bloc and, post-Cold War, owing to inertia in official thinking, with Russia.

Likewise, the ideologically right-leaning Bharatiya Janata Party when in power talked individual initiative and free enterprise at home and sported a US (and generally, West)-friendly attitude abroad. Even so, different party and coalition regimes never overstepped the bounds of the “consensus” view of not closing in with any great power. Balance of power has always been preferred in the external realm and, whenever possible, India has also acted as balancer in the global system to maintain equilibrium. It made for an accretion in India’s political, diplomatic, and military leverage and heft, and obtained a stable international “correlation of forces” which, because it was prevented from ever tipping over, did not permanently favour any particular power and skew the game.

This policy stance and world view began wavering in the last decade. The Congress Party government under Manmohan Singh in 2004-2014, instead of gently steering the policy back to mid-channel, as it were, followed up on the Atal Bihari Vajpayee-led BJP government’s NSSP (Next Steps in the Strategic Partnership) initiative, made quite extraordinary concessions to the United States for the civilian nuclear cooperation deal. This deal predicated on New Delhi’s sticking with the so-called “voluntary moratorium” announced by Vajpayee after the 1998 Shakti series of nuclear tests, a decision made with little forethought even less strategic foresight, hobbled not just India’s thermonuclear weapons capability and the indigenous nuclear industry based on reactors run on natural uranium and the abundant locally available thorium to attain energy independence envisaged by the 1955 three-stage Bhabha Plan, but lofted America into the central position in the country’s geopolitics and foreign policy.

As this analyst had predicted, the disastrous nuclear deal led to growing pressures on the Indian government to mesh Indian policy interests with those of Washington and to ground intimate military cooperation and coordination supposedly to address common threats – China and Islamic terrorism, in the foundational agreements. The Barack Obama Administration also cleverly weaved the issue of India’s access to US high-technology and Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ‘Make in India’ rhetoric into the emerging matrix, saying that without these accords the Indian demand for high-technology collaboration wouldn’t materialize.

The trouble is these accords will mainly achieve for the US its grand strategic objective of reducing India, in effect, to a client state, like, well, Pakistan! It is a denouement the country had avoided in the Fifties and Sixties when it survived on US aid largesse and “ship to mouth” American PL 480 grain and, more recently, during the otherwise pliant dispensation of Manmohan Singh owing to the stonewalling by the Leftist defence minister, A.K. Antony.

So, what’s the problem? LSA requires portions of the host country’s air and land bases set aside for use by its military units and of ports where its ships will berth, to be literally taken over by American personnel with responsibility for any and all activity in these delineated zones coming under exclusive US authority. Thus, the US exercises near absolute control of parts of the Pakistan Air Force base at Jacobabad.

This arrangement is meant to ensure security of US military assets and secrecy of missions undertaken by them. In essence, the host country loses sovereign control over portions of its own territory. True, with local sensitivities in mind, the LSA with India may be tweaked for dual or joint control with US activity in these areas possibly coming under some sort of attenuated Indian oversight. But it will not dilute the fact that a foreign power will wield authority in India, which last happened when the British colonials lorded over this country.

What India gets in return – the ability of Indian naval ships and submarines to be resupplied in Diego Garcia, say, and for aircraft to refuel there, will doubtless extend India’s maritime density and presence and air surveillance reach. But the garnering of such facilities begs the larger geostrategic question as to why New Delhi has not established naval and air bases in North and South Agalega Islands the Mauritius government long ago offered India, and on the northern Mozambique coast where Maputo has been urging India to emplace its naval units. The Agalega and Mozambiqan bases would make the Indian military independent of any need for a mid-oceanic resupply option provided by Diego Garcia, courtesy the US.

Why be beholden to a foreign power whose interests do not overlap with India’s, when the country can have distant and separate military presence in Mauritius and the East African littoral? Besides, the Indian military oriented to territorial defence, will nowhere utilize the far flung US bases and military resources as much as the more actively deployed US military units in the Indian Ocean and West Asia will use Indian bases. So, on balance which country’s interests does the LSA actually serve?

CISMOA is extraneous to the need for the simple reason that the lack of a shared communications grid has not stopped interoperability from being realized by jerry-built solutions, which have proved adequate. In the annual Malabar naval exercises, for instance, Indian and US ships communicate through the US-supplied Centrix interface plugged into Indian vessels and manned by American seamen to permit ship-to-ship and command communications.

Moreover, some sections of the Indian armed forces have so far resisted the idea of integrating communications system because of the not unreasonable fear it will permit US “penetration” of the Indian military command, control, and communications net to the highest levels, and the insertion of cyber warfare-capable, remotely activated, “bugs” that can extract, store, and transmit classified information, and sabotage it.

BECA will become redundant once the entire Indian constellation of some 13 satellites is up which will happen inside of another five years. With the successful launch of the sixth IRNSS satellite the system is more than half way there, and has sub-metre photo imagery capacity and a footprint covering the entire sea and landmass of Asia relevant to India’s security concerns.

There will, however, be a more telling fallout. A miffed Russia, already apprehensive about India’s increasing military closeness to the US and the West, may decide to shrink technology transfer and assistance programmes in the most sensitive and critical strategic armament areas, such as in developing a powerful highly enriched uranium-fueled nuclear power plant to run the second Kochi-built aircraft carrier, the 65,000 ton-class INS Vishal. Really crucial high value technology help is not, under any circumstances, something Washington will render for love or money. A sufficiently riled Moscow could virtually instantly bring the Indian conventional military, strategic forces, DRDO, and defence industry to its knees (and its senses?) by withdrawing its support and collaborative help.

Then there’s the fact that US military presence on Indian soil will attract the attentions of jihadis and Islamist radicals, ranging from the al-Qaeda and Islamic State, to the garden variety terrorist outfits — Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, and its ilk, and their local offshoots. Because India will be responsible for the overall security of American military materiel and manpower in India, the central, state and local Indian government, police, and intelligence agencies will have their hands full trying to keep Americans and their property safe. And any shortfalls in security leading to successful terrorist attacks on American personnel and assets will blow up in New Delhi’s face.

It is not certain the Modi government has considered any of the politico-military ramifications of signing the three agreements and their social impact, properly assessed the dire internal security risks of terrorists targeting the American presence, nor pondered the political and diplomatic costs and the debilitating effects of India being perceived in the world as an American appendage rather than as a proud and independent country and emerging great power in Asia to rival China.

About Bharat Karnad

Senior Fellow in National Security Studies at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi, he was Member of the (1st) National Security Advisory Board and the Nuclear Doctrine-drafting Group, and author, among other books of, 'Nuclear Weapons and Indian Security: The Realist Foundations of Strategy', 'India's Nuclear Policy' and most recently, 'Why India is Not a Great Power (Yet)'. Educated at the University of California (undergrad and grad), he was Visiting Scholar at Princeton University, University of Pennsylvania, the Shanghai Institutes of International Studies, and Henry L. Stimson Center, Washington, DC.
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48 Responses to India in America’s coils?

  1. Sriram Datla says:

    Sir i have heard LSA is going to be signed because it doesn’t cause any problem. We can refuse and approve their requests whenever we want is what many defence people say. Is that true. Im shocked that we are going to sign other two agreements which you have vehemently rejected in your book. I hope some sense prevails otherwise we would keep hurting our national interest. Is Mr Modi really such a fool. Maybe he doesn’t understand such stuff and only wants his MAKE IN INDIA to work? Maybe his NSA should try to calm him a bit.

  2. What about hidden agenda?Do you think Modi & his team is such a fool to overlook points raised by you?

  3. p1945 says:

    Sir.I respect your word. As an admirer of your efforts to keep away ARIHANT from the IFR with China there. Your advice to include long range heavy bombers in IAF was overlooked by GoI. Former NSA, M.K. Narayanan admitted this mistake in one of the IDSA meets. If history repeats, GOD save the country.

  4. Ashi says:

    I disagree. With China becoming a major threat collaboration with US is important .We certainly will not become a Pakistan as we do not take aid and Russia partnership always gives us a way out.
    Jacobabad comparison is wrong as it contains US funded f 16s and such a thing will never happen to India. Don’t forget US is ready to talk on jet engine technology, etc.

    • satyaki says:

      With China becoming a threat it is deployment of the Agni-V, K-4 and eventually Agni-VI that is important rather than collaboration with the U.S. When push comes to shove vis a vis China, the U.S will leave us to their tender mercy or force us to surrender sovereignty to become another South Korea or Phillipines.

    • Manish says:

      Why is it either China camp, or Russia camp or US camp?

      Why not 125 crore people — who constitute one seventh of humanity — form their own camp? Did the Chinese play second fiddle to Communist USSR even a week longer than required post-1949?

      We Indians had half a century to create a nation out of an ex-colony. We have largely frittered it away, as is evident from the fact that most Indians cannot get their heads around 125 crore Indians becoming a global force to reckon with, and instead keep wasting their intellect and energy in ingratiating themselves to the west. Mentally, the Nehruvian State of India has managed to keep its citizens still totally colonized. There were great hopes from Modi but postMay2014, he has turned out to be a lemon. Not sure how he managed to fool so many people for so long.

      • ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

        Because all these camps have historically spent close to 10% of GDP on average on Arms build up and this entitles them to a camp of their own.

        India OTOH spends less than 2% of GDP which only entitles a small bunch of ministers to ministrate and negotiate on weapons imports vs. technology imports.

        2% VS. 10%. You can see the difference for yourself.

      • Mongrelji@ — as usual, on the mark.

  5. A good analysis by Bharat Karnad as to why India’s military tie up with the US will be a disaster for India and more importantly, why it is unnecessary. .

    I would like to add that such a tie up will surrender Indian sovereignty in both military and foreign policy terms to the United States and see India over run by Sunni Moslems like US’ “allies” in Europe. India will become subservient to Pakistan (Sunni Islam’s) designs and make India an instrument of the US-NATO-Sunni Axis. It will turn the Indian Army into cannon fodder proxies like the Taliban in the up coming war with China. It will aso reduce India to the status of countries that were conquered and occupied by the United States after the Second World War such as Germany and Japan where the US Armed Forces have a free run, are above the law of the land and get away with rape and murder like Dalits and Moslems in India.

    The United States will never enter into an Agreement that subjects US military personnel to Indian laws in Indian territory. Nor will the US ever allow its military to serve under Indian command at any level. Indian Armed Forces will be reduced to Puppet Soldiers under the direct but camouflaged command the US President. Who is likely to be another Nixon, a Clinton, a Bush or an even more Islamic and pro=Pakistan Obama.

    The US has been a consistent enemy of India and a hired gun of Islam since the days of Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger and Saudi Sheikh Yamani. If Nixon sent the Seventh Fleet into the Bay of Bengal to defend Pakistan’s right to practice Mahomet’s Islam (choreographed mass rapes, sexual slavery, torture, genocide, vandalism etc) Obama has done so in Mesopotamia with his Daesh regiment of Taliban. He dropped a Billion Dollars worth of sophisticated weaponry, including systems for dropping its nuclear war heads on targets deep within India, into Pakistan’s lap in November 2015. He also abused Indian hospitality and started off a “Tolerance” Chorus of Indian Fifth Columnists obligated to Petro-Dollar Sunni Islam or the White Hice in some way or another.
    The US is a Polyphemus being ridden by Sunni (Petro Dollar) Islam as Sindbad was by the “Old Man of the Sea” I have been saying this for years. But it is not really a joke, Not for the Yazidis, the Syrians, the Iraqis, the Kurds and others (including Jews and Christians, by the way) whom the US and its allies are continuing to massacre. Islamic attacks within Syria and Iraq, presumably, do not concern US officials. Because Iraq and Syria are part of the “Axis of Evil” and right now, US allies Turkey and ISIS/ISIL are massacring the Kurds in tandem? In any case, assume for a moment, that US officials are concerned. What can they do about it? Right now, without air power, the Kurds who were holding up ISIS’advance are at the mercy of a US pincer comprising two US allies: ISIS and Turkey: This is not a war on ISIS that will be waged. This is the appearance of war to deceive Americans that the White Hice is doing something about Islam. ISIS is a White Hice proxy. Turkey is ISIS ally. Turkey, Saudi, Kuwait, Pakistan, Qatar, The White Hice and the rest of the Sunni(Petro-Dollar) Caliphate dislike the Kurds (including Yazidis) with the same intensity as they disliked the Liberal Socialist, Secular non Islamic Baathist States of Sadam Hussein’s Iraq and Al Assad’s Syria where there were free modern Universities and Hospitals, discos, bars unveiled women, thriving communities of Kuffars such as Jews, Christians, Yazidis and other such affronts to Islam. Face it, the White Hice are not the US. The White Hice, the State Department and the CIA are not accountable to the US people as much as internal US governance. From Nixon’s China and Pakistan to “contain India” (a suicidal India that is its own worst enemy with “reservations” and “corruption”), Bush (the Father’s) ‘s CIA to Reagans’s Iran-Contra and Taliban, to Clinton (the husband’s) bombing of Belgrade to cede Islam its first ethnically cleansed enclaves in Europe since 1489, to Bush (the Son’s) Iraq and Obama (The Holy Ghost’s) ISIS, the White Hice have been acting just as any mercenary on the pay roll of Sunni (Petro Dollar) Islam might. Pakistan is the US’s consistent cat’s paw to contain India since Nixon as it has been China’s since inception. Islamic Terror is Pakistan’s favoured and consistent weapon in dealing with India with full White Hice blessings

  6. Manoj says:

    Bharatji,
    LSA would be a big mistake. US even without LSA is able to create an impression that India is in its orbit (remember the joint-patrolling-of-south-china-sea). Imagine what will happen if these “foundation agreement” is signed. Surely they will be able to rob India away from current partners.

  7. MS says:

    Your assessment on Moscow is right.. Also, your last para is important.

    While I understand that we need to ally with the west and gain a foothold in their economy but we have to emulate China in that regard rather than this stuff. We could have a very strong relationship with America even otherwise. But we must be willing to grow our industry and make America our client state :-)..- in the sense that we export quality goods there. Let us serve them by meeting their high tech and medium tech needs.

    To expect a country to help us short circuit the process of innovation is a fantasy. I respect China…look around and see. Their ability to absorb new technology, adapt and innovate is inspiring and our govt must create conducive atmosphere in the country for the same. Rest will follow.

    Problem is more internal than external-lack of confidence.

    • suchindranathaiyer says:

      Au contraire. China is confident that it can anger the world without any serious consequences. Who is there to oppose it? The US-NATO-Sunni axis is fully occupied in the Third World War that was built up on the foundation laid by Nixon, Kissinger and Sheikh Yamani as well as the Second Cold War begat by William Lewinsky Clinton. China has an apprentice within the charmed circle of the axis in the shape of Pakistan. India is fully pre occupied with the Reservations-Extortion Civil War bequeathed by its Constitution and PANGOLINs. Japan, Australia, Korea and Vietnam are helpless without their otherwise preoccupied guardian, the US face of the US-NATO-Sunni axis. China has the might and a pretty free run to realize its ambitions of Lebensraum that it has clearly declared in successive long term (fifteen) year People’s Liberation Army plans since 2000.
      The US has deliberately advanced a consistent pro-Sunni Islamic Policy since Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger and Sheikh Yamani that led, among other things, to sending the Seventh Fleet up the Bay of Bengal to defend Pakistan;s right to practice Islam (mass rapes, sex slavery, genocide, vandalism etc) in 1971 and Turkey’s annexation of half of Cyprus in 1973 and the persecution of Shia Iran in International affairs. The US is a Polyphemus being ridden by Sunni (Petro Dollar) Islam as Sindbad was by the “Old Man of the Sea”. The White Hice, the State Department and the CIA are not accountable to the US people as much as internal US governance. From Nixon’s China and Pakistan to “contain India” (a suicidal India that is its own worst enemy, standing as a Totalitarian Anti-Hindu State on the two fundamental pillars of “reservations” and “corruption”) as State Policy, Bush (the Father’s) CIA when he founded the Bush wealth from largesse found under the Tent of Saud, to Reagan’s Iran-Contra and Taliban, to Clinton (the husband’s) bombing of Belgrade to cede Islam its first ethnically cleansed enclaves (Bosnia and Kosovo) in Europe since 1489, to Bush (the Son’s) Iraq and Obama (The Holy Ghost’s) ISIS, the White Hice have been acting just as any mercenary on the pay roll of Sunni (Petro Dollar) Islam might. Pakistan is the US’s consistent cat’s paw to contain India since Nixon as it has been China’s since inception. Islamic Terror is Pakistan’s favoured and consistent weapon in dealing with India and has full White Hice blessings. The US has tossed one country after another into the maws of Sunni Islam. Afghanistan, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Cyprus, Tunisia, “The Arab Spring” and Libya.
      This has seen the US caught up in a quagmire where Iraq alone left it Three Trillion Dollars and 5,000 Arlington Headstones in the hole. It has not recovered and has pushed its allies into economic misery by conjuring up a false flag MH-17 to unite NATO in sanctions against Russia thus uniting Russia with China.
      The White House ensures that India remains at arms length, The US has been a consistent enemy of India and a hired gun of Islam since the days of Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger and Saudi Sheikh Yamani. If Nixon sent the Seventh Fleet into the Bay of Bengal to defend Pakistan’s right to practice Mahomet’s Islam (choreographed mass rapes, sexual slavery, torture, genocide, vandalism etc) Obama has done so in Mesopotamia with his Daesh regiment of Taliban. He turned the emerging entente cordiale with India into a detente with just two deft moves. He dropped a Billion Dollars worth of sophisticated weaponry, including systems for dropping its nuclear war heads on targets deep within India, into Pakistan’s lap in November 2015. He also abused Indian hospitality and started off a “Tolerance” Chorus of Indian Fifth Columnists obligated to Petro-Dollar Sunni Islam or the White Hice in some way or another.
      The US today has no military recourse, no boots for any ground, other than its Sunni proxies who, as surely as there was a “9/11” will turn and rend the US after they have done with Europe that the US has thrown into their maws. Unless India surrenders it Army as puppet soldiers for the White Hice to command and gives the US an alternate Cadmus Seed to exploit.
      China has calculated well and is proceeding with the same ruthlessness that Communism has always had in Common with Islam and the United States.
      PANGOLIN: An enemy of India who believes in inequality under law, exceptions to the rule of law and persecution of some for the benefit of others. At present, the sole purpose of the Indian Republic, Constitutional or otherwise, is to pamper and provide for certain constitutionally preferred sections of society who the British found useful to hold and exploit India at the cost of those who the British hated and persecuted. The Pangolin is a creature that is unique to India and feeds on ants that are known in nature to be industrious and hard working if not quite as fruitful as bees who flee to better climes. (PANGOLIN is an acronym for the Periyar-Ambedkar-Nehru-Gandhi-Other (alien) Religions-Communist Consensus that usurped the British Mantle and has worn it with elan to loot, plunder, and rape India since 1921 and re write History and laws to their exclusive benefit since 1947)

  8. andy says:

    Respected Sir,

    Isn’t it possible for India to to sign up as a US ally & pretty much do as we please?After all Israel & Pakistan do so.I know its galling to be in the same categories as Pakistan but maybe once we are inside the system we could manipulate it better?Both these countries have survived to date just by being close to the USA. I know its not a matter of survival for India, but do we at present,posess the economic power to stand up to the Chinese muscle in the IOR & the Himalayas? Maybe a pragmatic approach would be in our best national interest?

    • Look at the map. Can India be compared with the small and relatively inconsequential Pakistan and Israel?

      • andy says:

        No Sir,There’s no comparison whatsoever but that shouldn’t mean we can’t learn a thing or two on how to manipulate the yanks,from them.I don’t have any love lost for uncle sam but I do love our beloved motherland. The Chinese are our main security challenge,if we can permanently discomfit them by signing up with the USA,then so be it.After all we did sign a friendship treaty with the Soviets & only then intervened in east Pakistan in 1971.

    • suchindranathaiyer says:

      The Bottom Line is that any Indian tie up with the US will surrender Indian sovereignty in both military and foreign policy terms to the United States and see India over run by Sunni Moslems like US’ “allies” in Europe. India will become subservient to Pakistan (Sunni Islam’s) designs and make India an instrument of the US-NATO-Sunni Axis. It will turn the Indian Army into cannon fodder proxies like the Taliban in the up coming war with China. It will also reduce India to the status of countries that were conquered and occupied by the United States after the Second World War such as Germany and Japan where the US Armed Forces have a free run, are above the law of the land, and get away with rape and murder like Dalits and Moslems in India.

  9. ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

    Re. BK – “A sufficiently riled Moscow could virtually instantly bring the Indian conventional military, strategic forces, DRDO, and defence industry to its knees (and its senses?) by withdrawing its support and collaborative help.”

    This actually has precedence in the way the Sino-Soviet relationship simply folded up, one fine morning, in 1959.

    The Latino-Generalissimo styled Brass in our armed forces coupled with the short memories of the Politicos trippled with NSA’s that retire into the payrolls of the Brookings’ Institute quadrupled with IMF intervention into monetary and economic policies of India, quintupled with the free commercialization of nationalistic ideas via vacuous think-tanking, already has messed up things quite bad. Today neither the Russians nor the Chinese nor even the Americans take us seriously. Russian’s think we are trying to sell our souls like the way the Chinese did around 1959. Chinese think we are just a regional munna. Americans think they already own our ass and go on to aid/supply Pakis.

    Our country needs to stop being lead by negotiators and needs to have a Comprehensive National Strength Strategy in place.

    And people in the establishment need to stop copying the Chinese. They could manipulate the Soviets and Americans (that too only to a very limited extent) because the Chinese were better prepared to commit and live their national plans, unlike India which even today has major weaknesses on full display. Moreover the Chinese tact of tilting-towards-one-side ended up making them at least a perennial suspect, among all.

    Duvidha mein dono gaye – Maya mili na Ram. Ram ke pichey bhago, Maya apne aap mil jayegi. Build up trust where you already have it. Respect trust where you have it.

    For those who know their history. Remember the Chinese “smartness” ended up with the Soviets supporting the Viets and the Chinese supporting the Mujaheddin. Who gained what by that so called “pragmatic national interest” – except the West. When somebody with exposure to the West mentions things like Pragmatic National Interest – he is asking you to drop what you have for a promise of a great future.

    Modi ji too has to understand that these major power groups – West / China / Russia are not of the same intellect level as the general Indian public. A methodical negotiation with them cannot get for India its share of the sky. Max. that a negotiating skill is good for is a discount. Nations do not stand up based on discounts. Nations need commitment and cash to fund their national capacity.

    There is no point in simply signing for the reason that – there is no harm in signing up. What do we get in return? How do our hands get freed up, in return, towards “unreasonably extending” our national capacity? Or is it that all we get in return is an import licence and we should be happy with that?

  10. Veerpartap says:

    Tejas aircraft began with American Help.Today Bharat ji is all about gaga over Tejas.Dhruv Helicopter began with German MBB guidance and technical help.Germans also gave us help in designing MBT Arjun.

    Hal is developing Light Utility heli, Russians want to sell us their crap called Kamov, which they themselves may never buy.

  11. andy says:

    So if we can’t be pragmatic let’s be realistic. . What exactly do we have with the Russians? Trust?Well maybe, but they trust us only because we don’t copy their military kits like China does.This same “trust” never stopped them from jacking up the cost of INS Vikramaditya from $900 million to $2.3 billion (extortion if you ask anyone) nor has it stopped them from supplying state of the art military equipment to the Chinese e.g the recent sales of S-400 air defense system & proposed sale of 24 SU -35 fighter jets to name only two such deals.Ultimately it’s all about the money with the Russians as with everyone else,so let’s not be starry eyed about them.
    Everybody is cribbing about the supply of 8 measly F16 fighters to Pakistan by the USA,so which is our biggest security threat Pakistan? (which never was a threat,is not a threat & never will be a threat)or China. When we have a real challenge out there in China we are getting worried about a pesky little mosquito. The only reason the Pakistanis are so in our faces all the time is because of they are supported both by the USA & China, otherwise we would have sorted them out latest by 1987(remember operation brass tacks).
    Presently the Chinese are preoccupied in the South China Sea.Once that is settled & they’ve comprehensively built up their military power ($150+ billion defence budget this year,increasing more than 10% year on year)by 2025 India will face the full brunt of their might in the Indian ocean region & the Himalayas,evidenced by the fact that all their land border disputes have been resolved, including those with Russia & Myanmar, while Indian border has been kept simmering,in spite of all our entreaties for a quick resolution.
    Here’s where we need to be realistic,can India stand toe to toe against China today?if not ,then what suggests we will be able to in 2025?when their GDP is estimated at more than $16 trillion & $6 trillion for India.In the event of war,what stops the Russians from siding with the Chinese & stopping all military supplies to India?After all the Chinese import more oil & gas from them than we do arms.The point is we cannot possibly take Russian support for granted especially where China is concerned in today’s changed Geo political landscape.
    Now what do we get out of signing up with the American club?as the old saying goes”dushman ka dushman ,dost hota hai”(an enemies enemy is a friend)by no stretch of imagination is Russia an enemy of China. The USA,if not an enemy, is surely an antagonist of China & at least looks to contain it.The very threat of joint sea patrols by the USA & India has the Chinese all in a fluster(read recent articles in the Global Time’s by long xing Chu on 25/2/16 & by Wang dehua on 29/2/16).These are signs of acute discomfort at just the thought of USA- India bonhomie.

    Deterrence is more a mind game than anything else.It’s first tenet is,it’s not what you have that matters but what your enemy thinks you may have that deters him.So it doesn’t count wether the Americans will bear arms with India in the event of war with china, what does count is China grappling with the question of ‘what if the American’s do join us ‘in the event of any adventurism on it’s part.
    So we get two benefits by signing up with America 1.We permanently discomfit China.
    2.We hugely deter any Chinese adventurism against us.

    Lastly ,Jo waqt ke saath nahi badalte,wo peeche reh jaate hain (those who don’t change with the times,get left behind)
    This is applicable to nations as well..

  12. andy says:

    http://idrw.org/chinese-army-spotted-along-line-of-control-in-pakistan-occupied-kashmir-say-sources/

    Maybe we don’t have to wait till 2025 for the Chinese to start showing their muscle in the Himalayas.

  13. ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

    Tejas did not start with American ‘help’. Tejas started with American dakaiti / robbery of what the Indians had achieved. That still did not stop DRDO from salivating for American stuff and again we ended up in a Congressi / Amar Singh, Nuke deal. And to this day we are trying to fit the Nuke Deal to the American interests which get reflected in a straight hijack of the only Nuke plant put up after the Nuke Deal (Kudankulam). Ever wonder how the Right Wing in India and the people like the S P Udayakumar and the Holy Church all end up supporting the US interests in India.

    IAF was no better. They were salivating for Snecma engines. They got us into the French version of East India Company. We were not just short changed with the Scorpene but today India is being robbed with 36+90 Rafale. Some say we also need french ‘help’ with missile guidances.

    China is the latest justification for this abject surrender. When the reality is that countries much smaller and much weaker than India are conducting themselves with lesser hai-tauba. Have anybody ever seen anybody from South East Asia shiver like this. It never occurs, or rather its actively sought to be pushed under that china which itself was a much weaker opponent kept both the Soviets and the Americans reasonable. But no sir, for India it must be abject surrender only.

    There is no alternative for a will.

  14. ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

    People really under-estimate what the American are doing to India.

    Pakis got around 11 billion USD in last decade. Approved amount was actually twice that. For a country that is 8 times smaller than India populationwise and probably 10 times smaller than India Economy-wise.

    Or you could put that in context and say it is the same thing as giving 110 billion USD to India.

    But no sir we must instead buy 110 billion USD worth of unreasonably priced military hardware and Nuke plants from US.

  15. ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

    The Chinese case is even worse. US gave 10 years plus of MFN statuses to China and literally build China up. And today both these countries tag team as Good Cop and Bad Cop.

    Wake up, it mid day. India, got rejected from the days of “Wells of Powers” and Partition of India. And first got betrayed in 1959-1962 period, when a western educated PM ruled India. One with confirmed and admitted Western sensibilities. One, who actually went to these very countries to seek initial re-armament (post 62) and got his ass handed over to him alongwith a WW-1 made submarine the L-class. 🙂

    Even to this day it is British born people like Maxwell that get quoted about India’s stand w.r.t. Tibet. Oh! correct that to Aksai Chin since Tibet was sold out in 1962 itself by the Americans. There is no Tibet thanks to the betrayal we should rather not talk about.

  16. andy says:

    Let’s put things in perspective here,what’s being insinuated is signing the LSA with the USA is”abject surrender”by India,so what would the Friendship treaty with the erstwhile USSR be termed as,”triumphant victory “?Let’s not get jingoistic.Kindly refrain from double standards where national interest is concerned.

    The treaty with USSR was apt & justifiable for the prevailing circumstances in that era,the LSA & others would be apt for today’s international scenario. In other words it’s ‘Real Politik’.

    Can any country in Southeast Asia ever dream about containing China?NO!period.India may or may not be able to do so,but damned if we won’t give it our best shot.

    Most nations in Asia including Vietnam, Japan etc have strategic partnerships with India & we’ve signed many agreements with them,no one ever complained then!The truth is even Washington cannot keep China straight on its own that’s why they so assiduously woo us.Everybody realises that without India,their stand against China is a lost cause. These agreements with the USA (LSA etc)have to be seen in this light.They are just 3 in a long line of agreements that India has signed with a multitude of Nations ,with the express purpose of keeping China honest.

    Please do not make the cardinal mistake of underestimating the Chinese,Nehru did so( he even gave them the UNSC seat offered to us in 1955)with his Hindi -chini Bhai Bhai slogan & paid the price by sending poorly equipped Indian troops to become canon fodder,as part of his ‘forward policy’,which resulted in the disastrous military humiliation in the war of 1962.

  17. andy says:

    As for American aid to Pakistan, data compiled by USAID shows that India received $ 65.1 billion in economic assistance from the USA in the period 1946 to 2012,which makes us the biggest beneficiary of American economic aid in the whole world for the same period.This when we were the defacto allies of the Soviets. The question of military aid to India does not arise for the same reason,although we did receive $870 million in military aid after the 1962 war.Most military & economic aid to Pakistan is a result of the Americans intervention in Afghanistan.First during the Soviet occupation & now in the war against the Taliban. It’s another matter altogether, that most military equipment supplied to Pakistan for use in Afghanistan, can also be used against India,but that’s how the dice rolls.It’s also to ensure that Pakistan survives as a viable state,since it’s nuclear technology could proliferate into undesirable hands in case it becomes a failed state.

  18. andy says:

    With the demolition of the Berlin wall in 1989 one superpower bloc(Soviet Union + Warsaw pact allies) disintegrated & a new world order came into being.America & it’s NATO allies had won the cold war.They tried to establish a new liberal international order where by all nations could progress.China as also India benefitted from this,as did numerous other nations .

    So to single out China & state that it was the only country whose rise American supported would be a biased statement & also illogical to say the least

  19. ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

    Aapne to Cause & Effect ko hi ulta kar ke rakh diya hai!

    Pakis deserved scorn along with their overt and covert supporters but they got Aid and support.

    We Indians were robbed in broad daylight by these Westerners for last 300 years in every which way and yet you love extortionist handouts. Do you even know what we had to pay for those PL-480.

    During WW-2 (even WW-1) we lost so many of our men to save these people that today I just wish that we keep quite when the WW-3 comes.

    Before end of WW-2 we had a famine in Bengal, thanks to our allying with the west. For which BTW we Indians are to be blamed, per the peer reviewed experts from Ivy League, US of A, like Amartya Sen.

    After WW-2 when we were forced to keep our own currency over-valued relative to Western Europeans, for over 17 years. That lost us a good country sized population in bhukhmari.

    Our currency used to be current in 1965 in the Mid-East. That was taken care of US and China armed Pakis in 1965 war.

    Then we simply had to devalue, unfortunately we had to devalue but only by that time the West had already set itself up to basically suck the world dry (not just India). That late devaluation is the crux of the ceaseless journey that Indian economy had taken right till the 1970s.

    Then our people were specifically de-frauded on Bretton Woods when USD went from 35 USD per ounce of gold (1971) to 800 USD per ounce of gold till 1980. By this time it really did not matter that we had devalued or not. There simply was no industry worth mentioning to exploit exports. Since then we have consistently been an Import driven deficit ridden perpetually sanctioned country all thanks to the people you now so look upto.

    Nearly all of crime in India is traceable to 10 budgets of Morarji Desai who kept Indians from buying gold legally, only so that the West could manage its Bretton Woods arrangements better where the US was obligated (by their own volition) to offer 35 USD to an ounce of gold. This singular act has pushed more Indians (in absolute terms) into penury than the whole of the British raj. That arrangement was extracted out of us, Indians.

    The PL-480 you so gratefully wish to acknowledge was supposed to be the head price for people like Vietnamese and a direct result of Gold Controls and delayed devaluations. We simply did not have foreign currency to buy in open markets. The trigger of famines itself were due to the West. Our gold had become pretty much useless for us by that time. Thanks to Western educated people like Morarji. We were expected to go slow on Pakis for this largesse. And had it not been for Indira we would have lost more hindus in 1971 then we have ever lost. All again thanks to the Western countries. Till date even the RSS and BJP have not saved one singular hindu soul (their own people keep getting killed, not unlike what the Nehru did to Krantikaris)

    And mind you the only reason we did not get wheat from the Russians during that period (unlike weapons) was because even the Russians were facing difficulties.

    In 1947 we only got the freedom to vote. Our economic slavery continued on till 1970s and early 1980s. And nearly all of it was due to American need for global netagiri.

    Hey Kalyugi Parth, Jaago, tumhara kurushetra koi aur jeet gaya hai. Kam sey kam apni haar dekhne ke liye hi sahi ab to utho.

    @andy bhaisahab, hope your back pain gets better soon. 🙂

  20. andy says:

    Mr.mongrel(what a sweet name coined for you by Mr.Karnad,so apt)

    You cannot argue with cold facts put forward by me so you’re stooping to a jingoistic tirade against the West as a whole.

    My dear fellow you need to come out of this colonial hangover which you still suffer from.

    Hello!knock! Knock!we’ve been independent for the last 65 years.It’s your brain which is still asleep.

    All your argument’s are nothing but conjecture(bina sar pair ki bakwas)”we were forced to keep our currency overvalued “even a grade 8 student would know that it’s impossible. All countries will act in their own sovereign interest.

    ” The trigger of famines were due to the west”what utter rubbish, the 2 famines 1 in Bihar & the other in Maharashtra 1970, were before the green revolution.We were not using our assets properly,otherwise why is there no famine after 1970?

    “Our economic slavery continued till 1970s early eighties ” last I checked India has got duly elected governments since 1947.

    As for your letftist anti West balderdash, would you tear up an American visa,if one were ever granted to you?No!!! You wouldn’t ,however much you may deny it.So just can it OK?

    Anyways for your kind information it was the British who ruled over India not the Americans & the topic at hand is signing of the 3 foundational agreements between India & the USA,not how we suffered during & after colonial rule.

    If this was a debate you would have been thrown out by now,for deviating from the topic at hand & bringing in irrelevant, irresponsible & illogical arguments. Also for getting personal.

    There’s a beautiful saying “when one comes across nonsense,one should ignore it”. I follow this very good advice, but couldn’t resist myself this time.Will surely follow it in the future to save myself from getting into juvenile arguments with you.

    “Dhritarashtra,tu to ankhon se bhi andha hai aur akal se bhi”(mongrel)

    Oh & you may send me your account number,I will transfer some money for zandu balm to apply on your backside,hope you are able to sit after that.

    Respected Mr.Karnad.

    I thought I would meet intellectuals like yourself on security wise,how can you allow riff raff like Mr.mongrel here to comment.
    Beats the hell out of me!

    • A plea: Let’s not get down to name-calling and abuse. Please. Have prevented responses with abuse in it. The correspondence between ”mongrelji” (ID tagline) and Andy is passing from lively to abusive. Hope our differences shed light, not merely produce heat.

    • suchindranathaiyer says:

      It would be good if you stuck to the facts. Have you any riposte sans name calling and opinion to my two post on the locus of the United States and China respectively vis a vis India?

  21. My take on this is that Obama is lame duck president now. Signing any agreement with USA or doing any of its bidding is a thankless job anyway and India will simply have to find a way of saying no to USA politely for now.

    Regarding taking the path of self sufficiency in defence for long term, I agree with Mr Karnad always, on this. Be it local production of armaments or having our own logistic capabilities and bases in Asia. If we are going to be at par with USA in GDP terms by 2050 we should be aiming for our role 30 years from now and not immediate future.

    As far as interoperability goes. Do our own armed forces have sufficient interoperability to start with, that we want interoperability with USA even before we have it within the three services?

  22. ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

    Heh heh, I got under his skin.

    Ok but for reality sake I will take out his obvious blindness and restart.

    @andy – [” The trigger of famines were due to the west”what utter rubbish, the 2 famines 1 in Bihar & the other in Maharashtra 1970, were before the green revolution.We were not using our assets properly,otherwise why is there no famine after 1970?

    “Our economic slavery continued till 1970s early eighties ” last I checked India has got duly elected governments since 1947.]

    Now obviously, andy could reach out only to wiki and hence remains restricted to 2 famines in post Independent India.

    Reality is far more dark. The Bamboo flowering and consequent famine (Mautam) was at the root of our troubles in Mizoram and sure enough Pakistan, China and the Western influence ensured that the famine was exploited to the hilt.

    In fact the famines in post Independent India have for the most part not resulted in mass extinction 😛 of Indians as was the case in the pre-independence India. For any rational man a question would arise as to why it was so?

    Reality is Dadabhai Naroji was crying about sheer absence of capital formation in British India in 1880s. Mind you British India implies only Agricultural economy. Even later (around independence) it was still only agricultural economy because apart from WW-2 military supplies there were no real Industry to begin with (refer the partition haggling over the well-irrigatged muslim west punjab and Jinah’s need for Kolkata (hindu majority). Then after independence we had to endure the Bretton Woods and the Pax-Americana which again ensured that we had no capital available to us for gainful investments. And till today Modi ji goes around the world asking for capital (now required even for Indian industry, not just the agri sector). God only knows how many people had to endure Pax-Americana. Even today our per hactare yield of Wheat is the same as that of Mexicos in the 1965.

    Since the 1940s especially, the agricultural economy itself is a capital intensive economy. It requires canals, land, fertilizer plants, transportation and for last few decades preservation/processing too. Americans in order to ensure their neta giri made sure that we never had enough capital for anything. It is the same today. We are expected to buy Rafales @800 million USD lifecycle cost or worse still F-35 with 600 million lifecycle cost (but with sure and sudden death for our own national efforts) but we cannot buy Sukhois at less than half that cost. But at least we can now restrict it to a military only disaster should the Rafale happen. At least the farmers are not going to go extinct.

    In fact even the Bengal troubles of 1966 went onto seed Naxal movement. Today we have European Commission sending its emissaries to witness Indian Court proceedings in the case of Binayak Sen.

    And even after 1970 the persistent famine in Bolangir and Kalahandi could only be addressed with heavily discounted Rice and only in the last 5-10 years. Next we are already facing troubles elsewhere but that would be too off topic.

    What people like andy do not know or wish to brush aside is that Britain and Americas are the same faces on both sides of the same coin. The policies are consistent, the results are consistent, even the justifications are same only the characters change. And its not like only these two countries have ganged up. There is a reason why NATO got built. All these Western European countries have lived to benefit themselves by causing mass genocides, each time with different excuses. France in Vietnam, Spain in Mexico, Portugese in Brazil, Britain in India and Africa, US in the whole of the world follow the exact same pattern of international behaviour. For example:

    The Spainsish prohibited the Mexicans from cultivating grapes because that would hurt Spanish wine industry,
    The Portugese invented the ‘Certificate of Whitness’ to manage Brazil,
    The French could never get over the fact they do not amount to much in North Africa and South East Asia so they took it out on Viets and Libya
    The Britishers lamented losing India so they packed off all rice to feed their Armies while Bengal died a horrible death. Today the justification for such crimes against humanity come from Americans like Amartya hired and highly awarded by the Americans.
    America itself could never understand how long it would last so they went on to build up China against Soviets and now believe that India will do them a favour by hobbling China for American benefit.
    Do you know the purchase orders for the British Indian Railways could only be processed in Britain effectively shutting out all Indian businessmen and today we have WTO telling us that we cannot have an indigenous PV Cell industry because US won’t allow it. The same US that had a Multi-fiber quota regime in place to manage upstarts like India.

    All birds of a feather. It would be a total stupidity to believe these people are different in any manner. Only thing different about them is how much our fair share they can loot and what should be the inter-se sharing of that loot.

  23. andy says:

    @ mongrelji,Why would anyone, insist on dragging in the British,the French,the Spanish & sundry others & labouring on & on about how they exploited their colonies,when the discussion is about the Americans(who themselves were a British colony til 1776)baffles me.As I said earlier, you need to get over the colonial hangover.

    Rather than going into long winding & tortuous explanation about famines &such other, here’s one fact,which should explain how India was well & truly beggared as a British colony.In the year 1700,India’s share of the world’s income was 23% by 1950 it was down to less than 3%.

    The British came to India & made it a colony only to exploit it’s resources, who said they were Angel’s?Is anything new being done by lamenting about colonial atrocities?

    After Independence India chose to remain non aligned from NATO & the Warsaw pact allies.When India joined up with the Soviet Union in 1970 it was virtually in the enemy camp for NATO members. Can anyone have a benign attitude towards an enemy or its percieved friend’s? If America & it’s allies tried to undermine Indian interest’s,it was due to India’s preference for the Soviet bloc.Not because they had an inherent hatred for the Indians as do the Pakistanis & the Chinese.

    How many were impoverished when the British left?How many have been uplifted since?you can’t expect an upliftment overnight, after being exploited for 2 centuries.So all the economic problems that existed pre independence continued unabated post independence,these included poverty,malnutrition, industrial stagnation,famine & so on,compounded by the socialist,protectionist licence permit Raj,India’s preferred mode of economic upliftment.

    All these factors contributed to India’s slow economic progress till 1991(jokingly referred to as the Hindu rate of growth) not as some people very simplistically state,due to the West(as if it’s one homogeneous entity)but can’t really blame them because from the time of Indira Gandhi’s tenure as PM”bahri takaton ki sazish” has been drilled into the Indian psyche to conveniently explain away the shortcomings in India’s social & economic impoverishment,mainly to divert attention from GOI’s own substantial failures in delivering the masses from poverty.In other words we were our own worst enemies firstly by choosing the socialist, protectionist license permit Raj as our preferred mode of economic development, secondly by choosing to remain non aligned & thirdly by ultimately joining the Soviet bloc(which riled the so called West even more than if we had stuck to non alignment)

    It was only in 1991 after facing a balance of payment crisis,that India chose to deregulate it’s economy & unleashed free market forces that unprecedented growth was witnessed in the last 24 years & a near economic miracle was accomplished.Point is, how long do we carry the chip of being exploited by colonial rule on our shoulders?

    The whole equation has chased now,what was relvent in 1947,1970,1990 is not any more.With the collapse of the Soviet bloc the whole international landscape has permanently changed as also with the rise of China.

    The fundamental nature of geopolitical alliances is that they continuously evolve,get stregthened/weakened,upgraded/downgraded, entirely discarded or new ones forged depending upon geopolitical situation, relative strength of international powers & that undefinable yet omnipresent element that underscores all international realignment-national interest.

    There’s no point saying that India is averse to international alliances ,having been a partner of the erstwhile Soviet Union.

    India is keenly aware of its growing international stature & probably does not want to engage in an alliance,where it might be at a disadvantage vis-a-vis the power equation(America)

    India’s primary strategic priorities remain China & Pakistan, where the Russian federation remains of little use.Russian hands are tied vis-a-vis China due to economic compulsions & they have little or no footprint in Pakistan.

    India has never had a coherent foreign policy,it’s been ad hoc & overall a miserable failure.China has trumped it in every single strategic tussle,be it propping up Pakistan or cosying up with Myanmar,Bangladesh, Srilanka,Nepal etc(although Modiji has made a few minor gains )or making Russia’s arms industry dependent on Chinese sales.

    So some out of the box thinking is required,the same old story will just not do for tackling newer challenges in the strategic sphere.

    As there was a change of course economically in 1991,when India dumped it’s socialist,regulated licence permit Raj economy & embraced a liberal market forces led model to herald a near economic miracle today,so another course correction is due in the geopolitical space,by dumping obsolete prejudices against America,which will be a quantum leap in enhancing India’s aspirations of becoming a superpower.

    Having powerful friends never hurt anyone .Wake up & smell the coffee.

    • ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

      Re. @andy “In other words we were our own worst enemies firstly by choosing the socialist, protectionist license permit Raj as our preferred mode of economic development, secondly by choosing to remain non aligned & thirdly by ultimately joining the Soviet bloc(which riled the so called West even more than if we had stuck to non alignment)”

      Is self-flagelation the only way you can raise your esteem?

      Do you know of don’t you that Nehru, Shastri and Indira all three went over to the Western Bloc and got kicked around? Today even Modi is going over to the West and he has yet achieve anything for our Strategic Reach.

      Do you know or don’t you, about Sir Olaf Caroe and how his thesis was neatly inherited over by US from the British?

      Do you know or don’t you about the Super 301 Sanctions that we have been threatened with?

      Do you know or don’t you about the push back by PVNR against the ill advised (obviously with intent) reforms of IMF that have since been brought in through back door courtesy MMS and RBI. And this time GoI has already raised the ‘expectations’ of an SBI man in RBI hot-seat, as a corrective measure.

      By trying to belittle Indira Gandhi’s warnings of ”bahri takaton ki sazish” in the same breath as claiming to provide the panacea of “powerful friends” for India’s ills.

      How will your “powerful friends” help India with our troubles?

      Like the way your “powerful friends” helped us with ARC which had to re-invent itself the day US aircrafts from Taiwan detected Lop Nur tests. What did ARC gain from cooperating? Did India get any part of the intel on Chinese Nukes or did the US went behind our backs to formalize a deal with the Chinese after 1964?

      Or like the way we got helped with ANTPQ 37 which is waiting for spares since kargil?

      Or like the way we got helped with LGB kits in kargil that enabled us to win kargil by dropping only 9 LGBs?

      Or like the way got helped with Pakistan where ‘somebody’ supplied them with land attack fixes to their naval harpoons. (which is why GoI protests for F-16s)

      Or like the way the GPS blinked in the Brahmos tests. (Which is why we needed G3OM)

      Or like the way the M-777 will help us now by being heli lifted to Himalayas (but without the shells getting heli lifted)

      Or like the way we got helped with P-8Is that can never fire or direct fire Over The Horizon? And for which we ditched the OTH capability of airborne Brahmos on Tu-142s and IL-38SDs.

      Or like the way we got helped after our Shakti tests with our Naval Sea Kings which needed spares badly and which were never supplied at the right time?

      Or like the way our gas pipeline from Iran never came because TAPI was important? When in fact by now the Chinese have taken nearly all of Turkmen gas.

      Or like the way our Submarine Design teams were sought to be infiltrated to advance the the Aircraft carriers because somebody sufficiently higher up in the hierarchy got cultivated?

      Or like the way we are getting nuclear plants from all over the West? (What there aren’t any!!??)

      Do you even know what are the common reasons adduced in favour of an Indian signature on LSA? Or is all your enthusiasm merely about “powerful friends”?

      “powerful friends”!!! 🙂 – now can anything be a stronger argument than this?

    • Raahul says:

      Is Pakistan, the basket case country shining evidence of how powerful friends have helped? Pakistan has always been “helped” by Uncle Sam for many decades. Pakistan used to be richer than Bharat, It may be hard to believe, but for real they were even until last decade. Every single problem in Pakistan can be traced solely to the USA, which funded the Taliban, helped Pakistan build the modern military state we know today.

      Which country has ever grown rich and powerful from the USA’s help?

  24. andy says:

    @mongrelji

    I know the truth is bitter to swallow,the day we own up to our mistakes as a nation & acknowledge them, will be the day we can start learning from them.

    Do you have any concrete arguments or just a litany of self pity evidenced by this cloud of victim mentality,lamentations about slights (real or imagined) & also hand wringing being indulged in here.

    Through this haze of self righteous victimhood which has been chosen as defence for weak argument’s, there’s one simple point which escapes your comprehension & which I shall attemp to put in simple terms ( although my previous attempt to do so by using the analogy of “powerful friends”was seemingly beyond your comprehension)Why would someone raise even a little finger to help anyone else,when they do not have any stakes in the others well being?kindly read it again to get a clearer grasp of what has been said.

    You want everything from everybody & want them to provide it for you, including jet engine technology, aircraft carrier technology, Emals,nuclear reactors,their backing in our disputes with Pakistan & China, help in trying to contain China,joint space exploration,you want them to invest in development of infrastructure & industry in India so on & so forth.In short you want them to provide you with everything under the sun but want all this without any strings attached or in other words you don’t want them to have any stakes in all this aside from the transaction of money.But if money can buy all technologies why is there such a premium on them?Its because simple money will not buy you the real hi tech stuff.

    The small question to be asked is why would America or any other nation indulge our ever little whims & fancies?Just because we are India?well things don’t work like this in the real world & till such time as we achieve the utopian world where in all other nations shall be beholden to us,we will have to do what the real world demands of us to not only survive in it but also to thrive in it.

    Unless you raise other nations stakes in India’s well-being by giving them what is being asked for ,within reasonable limits in a mutually agreeable manner,I am sorry to say all of what you are lamenting about will keep happening over and over again & 20 years later you will still be wringing your hands in despair & playing the victim.

    Are the Americans asking us to hand over our sovereignty by signing on the LSA?are we so weak as a nation that an agreement for logistics support will have catastrophic consequences for our future?

    Need to ponder over these questions.

    • ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

      So essentially you want to say “sorry woman you were asking for it, you should have made sure to cover your legs”. Cheers to that argument, man. Nobody really can beat you.

      On the more relevant points:
      Re. @andy – “Are the Americans asking us to hand over our sovereignty by signing on the LSA?are we so weak as a nation that an agreement for logistics support will have catastrophic consequences for our future?”

      Yes, actually the initial proposal was about Acquisition and Cross-Servicing Agreement (ACSA), sometime during the NDA-1 or in the UPA-1. To note ACSA was formerly known as “NATO Mutual Support Act”.

      Besides this they have also broached the subject of SOFA and CSL, which make no sense except to act as basing.The LSA was thought of only after people understood that ACSA/MLSA was about basing and after that you just have to sign on like UK or Pakistan to have your government run from Capitol. In fact Indian think tanks have mentioned MLSA as the next step. Apparently there is considerable support for this in the officer class of the armed forces. Let the soldiers learn the history and the intent then let us see how they see it.

      Regards your second question. Just to remind you the Islamists came into India with the smallest possible army ever. While the East India Company came in for trade. In any case the weakness or strength does not matter for allowing foreign countries to come in and stay put as a matter of right. This is our country and our people will decide if and the extent of interference by people from outside or their local acolytes. I have listed quite a few items if the officer class thinks that they are doing it right then let them address this history to their own soldiers first. You can easily guess the reaction from the last such outing by the officer class in the case of the OROP-Officers and the OROP-PBOR.

  25. andy says:

    @mongrelji

    “So essentially you want to say sorry woman you were asking for it you should have made sure to cover your legs”

    The relevance of this comment or its relationship & context to my last post ,only someone with a convoluted thought process would be able to justify, hope we shall be spared an explanation.

    So now a suffering from’ Islamic hangover’ has been added to a ‘colonial hangover’one must watch what beverages one consumes.

    What is amply evident is an obsession with the historical conquest/colonisation of India & trying(rather unsuccessfully)to weave a narrative about an American conquest of India based on the LSA.

    .India during the Islamic invasions & the British conquest was one of the top two economies of the world.By conquering it, the invaders wished to enrich themselves is self evident.A few home truths need to be told to check the delusions of grandeur which seem to cloud your thinking.

    Shift to the present day,in spite of the great economic progress made since 1991,India is still only a $2.3 trillion economy ($11+trillion for China).Per capita income is $1700+.more than 200 million people below the poverty line ,massive unemployment 10%of the population unemployed, the demographic dividend could become a demographic bomb if the 100000+people joining the work force every month do not find gainful employment,social unrest is an ever present danger due to the same reasons.e.g the recent quota riots by the jats in Haryana.Conquer India????

    ‘After that you just have to sign on like UK or Pakistan to have your govt run from Capitol’.

    Come again!!!Pakistan is being run from Capitol?that’s just about the corniest statement in the last few days.As is apparent to the right thinking,the Pakistanis are running an extortion racket,gaining billions of dollars for pretending to fight people they themselves nurture.America’s most wanted terrorist Osama bin Laden was found in abbotabad Pakistan.They are proliferators of nuclear tech & are expanding their nuclear arsenal,in spite of Washington’s reservations.In short they are running circles around uncle sam!

    lSA is only a logistics support agreement. Period!!kindly refrain from attributing ulterior motives where none exist.

    • ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

      Sorry @andy for a vole out of its hole, who cannot even read the basic data available on net explanations are not justifiable.

      LSA is everything that a base is except the hard building. Which will be made for them by somebody else on reimbursement basis or which they will themselves make on the land provided. The logistics support will not be provided out of some temporary hutment. So if you are ending up with both the premises and the wherewithals inside, how far can you stretch that as a Non-Base?

      And the agreement is needed to create rights and obligations. Till date the party that lead the govt. (NDA-1) which has offered the initial facilities (without creating extra-territoral rights for an outside party) as well as the successive governments (UPA-1 & UPA-2, who actually signed the Strategic Partnership MOU in March 2006 with Bush Jr.) have not signed the LSA after a lot of internal deliberations.

      Here is what an LSA does:

      DTIC, ‘Department of Defense, Directive, No. 2010.9
      “E2.1.10. Logistics Support, Supplies, and Services. Food, water, billeting,
      transportation (including airlift), petroleum, oils, lubricants, clothing, communications
      services, medical services, ammunition, base operations support (and construction
      incident to base operations support), storage services, use of facilities, training services,
      spare parts and components, repair and maintenance services, and air and sea port
      services. The term includes temporary use (lease or loan) of general purpose vehicles
      and other items of non-lethal military equipment not designated as part of the United
      States Munitions List under 22 U.S.C. 2778(a)(1) (reference (l)).”

      Ideas like ‘base’ are clearly spelt out in the LSSS definition itself. You cannot escape from the fact at all this needs to be housed somewhere too and that all of it is dressed up as a self-actuated reimbursement based request to the US. There are related jurisdiction issues for hardware, software and personnel also which will be covered by multiple ways and these other agreements cannot be avoided if you have opened up for this much.

      The laughable thing is that all this is supposed to be ‘voluntary’ and based on the ‘consent’ for the nation hosting this Non-US-Military-Base with Non-Rights for the US military.

      Even the people like Nehru and MMS who were completely westernized could not think of going to this extent.

      A pig even with lipstick on is still a ….

  26. andy says:

    @mongrelji,better than being a mole up on a pole who compares the Islamic invasion of India to signing the LSA,.If there was a Booker price for writing sheer nonsense I know who would get awarded.

    After beating around the bush with famines,Islamic invasions,British colonisation & sundry other equally irrelevant argument’s someone finally got around to reading about the LSA.Phew.Would have been a much better argument if it had been read around the same time as myself, which was when RM.Parikkar was in the USA.

    Everything is laid out in black & white with not a hint of any conspiracy theories & ulterior motives being alluded to in previous argument’s.

    As usual the fresh argument is nothing but innuendo. Insinuating nefarious designs where none exist.
    “Even the people like Nehru and MMS who were completely westernised could not think of going to this length”

    The basic argument is ,nothing which was not done in the past should be attempted.If
    that be the case,why does the creator of this argument travel using cars, buses or trains? Why not on horses & mules like in the past?Or why should he be using a computer? Half a century ago there were no computers?Its because of something called evolution,it’s caused by the human capacity to adapt itself to ever changing environments.Change is the very essence of life.

    What is not being realised or conveniently ignored is that between nations ,there are no permanent friends & no permanent enemies,only permanent interest’s.If Indo-US interests were divergent in the past ,they’ve converged in unimaginable ways today.What was unthinkable 20 years back is very much a reality today.India & the USA are strategic partners now & a partnership by its very nature requires a certain amount of give and take.How much give & how much take gets involved, is a matter of negotiation between the two partners,to arrive at a mutually agreeable solution.

    I am reminded of Chomsky ,whose rabid anti Americanism was diseased in a way because he could not find anything else to hate.Those who hate America as a hate system ,dislike it because they can’t find anything else to hate.

    Sigh!One can take a donkey to the water…….

    • ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

      These are just some of your gems which show the extent to which you have gulped the propaganda and then follow the reasons you keep conveniently ignoring facts (must be a good reason for that kind of ignorance):

      1. “I know its galling to be in the same categories as Pakistan but maybe once we are inside the system we could manipulate it better?Both these countries have survived to date just by being close to the USA”
      –Israel and Pakistan are supposed to be the realistic-pragmatic-national-interest for Indias to aspire to?

      2. “No Sir,There’s no comparison whatsoever but that shouldn’t mean we can’t learn a thing or two on how to manipulate the yanks,from them.”
      – Mark this please, the man wishes to manipulate the Yanks. Will come in handy at a later point. Disregard the fact that till date if the Yanks don’t like it then the A-5 gets cancelled at PMO level.

      3. “This same “trust” never stopped them from jacking up the cost of INS Vikramaditya from $900 million to $2.3 billion”
      – Ouch! You got me now. We should never have put that much money into the advance FMS account with the Russians :).

      4. “dushman ka dushman ,dost hota hai”(an enemies enemy is a friend)”
      – So Yanks are ‘dost’ worthy because the Yanks are ‘dushman’ to the Chinese. And that is why the US is retreating from Asia asking its dependents who had signed MLSAs with the Yanks in the hope that they were dealing with the dushman ka dushman.

      5. “The USA,if not an enemy, is surely an antagonist of China & at least looks to contain it.”
      – Now the dushmani has reduced to ‘containment’. Or more probably it really does not matter what it was to begin with 🙂 just so long as you can get a Kejriwal type solution where somebody else would pay for muft ka maal.

      6. “Can any country in Southeast Asia ever dream about containing China?NO!period.India may or may not be able to do so,but damned if we won’t give it our best shot.”
      – Can you ever make up your mind. Didn’t the period you mention signify anything to yourself. Or do you keep looking for more escape routes. Either give it your best shot or just live with the realization that you already have.

      7. “data compiled by USAID shows that India received $ 65.1 billion in economic assistance from the USA in the period 1946 to 2012,which makes us the biggest beneficiary of American economic aid”
      – The 65 billion USD he talks about was about 14 billion USD when it was taken (first 20 years) and is inflation adjusted to I think around 2015. And in those first twenty years we were ‘convinced by our own free will’ that we should keep the INR fixed to the Pound (4.5 : 1). And you can really never make out what a fixed exchange rate means for an impoverished country.

      8. “So to single out China & state that it was the only country whose rise American supported would be a biased statement & also illogical to say the least”
      – Now wait was it not dushmani just some points above.

      9. “They tried to establish a new liberal international order where by all nations could progress.”
      – Pass :). The readers can decide for themselves.

      10. “As I said earlier, you need to get over the colonial hangover.”
      – Sorry andy I cannot nor do I want to disown my own history.

      11. “As for your letftist anti West balderdash, would you tear up an American visa,if one were ever granted to you?No!!! You wouldn’t ,however much you may deny it.So just can it OK?”
      – You really think that Indians just while their time away wishing for a US Visa all day :). Thank you but I am as happy in India as a man can ever get.

      12. “If America & it’s allies tried to undermine Indian interest’s,it was due to India’s preference for the Soviet bloc.Not because they had an inherent hatred for the Indians as do the Pakistanis & the Chinese.”
      – Do you even know Indian history. Soviets did not enter the picture till all Western sources were exhausted by JLN+LBS. And even IG has asked for help when she became PM. There are good books by Adml Hiranandani and Debacle to Revival: Y.B. Chavan as Defence Minister (for armament). For the reality of US-Aid you will have to connect several data points. Or probably just wait for next dose of propaganda – would suit you better.

      13. “All these factors contributed to India’s slow economic progress till 1991(jokingly referred to as the Hindu rate of growth) not as some people very simplistically state,due to the West(as if it’s one homogeneous entity)”
      – Not homogenous? You really have never heard of the Marshall Plan and how it fed from the Bretton Woods.

      14. “Indira Gandhi’s tenure as PM”bahri takaton ki sazish” has been drilled into the Indian psyche to conveniently explain away the shortcomings in India’s social & economic impoverishment”
      – So Indira Gandhi who saved millions of Hindus exactly at the deepest point of economic history of India was wrong and you are right?

      15. “I know the truth is bitter to swallow,the day we own up to our mistakes as a nation & acknowledge them, will be the day we can start learning from them.”
      – Can you even live beyond quotes and clichés.

      16. “Having powerful friends never hurt anyone .Wake up & smell the coffee.”
      – I had heard of nations aspiring for power and Page-3 people aspiring for powerful friends. Apparently nations too can aspire for powerful friends.

      17. “Through this haze of self righteous victimhood which has been chosen as defence for weak argument’s”
      – Now a recounting of historical facts is just victimhood. Because the facts cannot be taken down.

      18. “You want everything from everybody & want them to provide it for you, including jet engine technology, aircraft carrier technology, Emals,nuclear reactors,their backing in our disputes with Pakistan & China, help in trying to contain China,joint space exploration,you want them to invest in development of infrastructure & industry in India so on & so forth.In short you want them to provide you with everything under the sun but want all this without any strings attached”
      – you really think US is doing us heathens a favour. That we are standing with a begging bowl.

      19. “What is not being realised or conveniently ignored is that between nations ,there are no permanent friends & no permanent enemies,only permanent interest’s”
      – heh heh….. didn’t I tell you this was coming.

  27. andy says:

    @mongrelji now that you’ve well & truly abandoned all attempts at defending your own trite and banal arguments and have resorted to nit picking in a futile attempt to undermine the opposing viewpoint,it would be a simple matter to declare victory and walk away but that would amount to letting you off the hook for having the audacity to type such fatous,inane & specious argument’s while suffering from mental diarrhea over the past few days.We shall see to what extent such a juvenile endeavor is successful.

    And two can play the game,following is a compilation of your own hilarious thoughts which you have the temerity to call ‘facts’……enjoy,

    Doublespeak.
    “Quintuple with the free commercialisation of nationalistic ideas via vacous thinktanking already has messed up things quite bad”.

    Our friend here is not only opinionated but also suffers from dislike of think tanks…..

    ” In fact Indian think-tanks have mentioned mlsa as the next step”

    …although he has no problem in quoting if they seemingly bolster his argument’s.

    Hypocrisy.
    A)”But no sir,for India it must be abject surrender”

    B)”or you could put that in context & say it is like the same thing as giving 110billion US dollars to India”

    Calls the signing of an agreement with the USA abject surrender but covets their dollars and whines about the fact that Pakistan is getting more dole than India. If this isn’t hypocrisy what is?

    Ignorance.
    “Before end of worid war2 we had a famine in Bengal, thanks to our allying with the West”

    As if we had a choice!. Keeps Tom tomming History but ignores that during ww2 India was a British colony and became sovereign on 15august 1947.So much for history.

    Innuendo.
    “In 1947 we only got the freedom to vote ,our economic slavery continued till 1970 & early 1980s & nearly all of it was due to American need for global netagiri”

    If the tap runs dry in his house ,he would blame the Americans for it.

    Delusions.
    “Do you or don’t you know about the push back by PVNR against the I’ll advised ‘obviously with intent’ reforms of IMF that have since been brought in through the back door”

    Shouldn’t beleive everything you read as the gospel truth,its called using ones brains.Having a problem with economic reforms,which have brought India such prosperity ,that we can now aspire to be a superpower, is just unbelievable to say the least.lf it were left to people like him,we would still be booking Fiat & ambassador cars & waiting 2 years for a land line telephone connection. It’s people like him that have kept India impoverished for so long with their policies & then they have the gall to lay all the blame at America’s doorsteps.With friends like mongrelji does India need enemies? Are you for real or just acting to entertain us?

    Fake victim.
    “Do you know or don’t you that Nehru,Shastri & Indira all three went over to the Western bloc & got kicked around? Today even Modi is going over to the west & he has yet to achieve anything for our strategic reach”.

    What did you expect reaching out to the west only when you landed in a soup with the Chinese or with Pakistan? Other wise ignoring them in the garb of non alignment.And he says he doesn’t suffer from a victim mentality & delusions of slights real or imagined.

    Paranoid.
    ” Sure enough Pakistan,China & Western influences ensured that the famine was exploited to the hilt”.

    I’ve heard about paranoia but this is ridiculous!

    Outrageous.

    “Sorry woman you were asking for it,you should have made sure to cover your legs”.

    I will leave this one for the readers

    Convoluted.
    ” Regards your second question, just to remind you the Islamists came to India with the smallest possible army ever”.

    What does one say to a person who equates the Islamic invasions of India with the LSA.Maybe that this is the year 2016AD & not 711AD,but what’s the point?a dinosaur will remain a dinosaur

    Incoherent.
    “I have listed quiet a few items if the Officer class thinks that they are doing it right then let them address this history to their own shoulders.you can easily guess the reactions from the last such outing by the Officer class in the case of the OROP-officers & the OROP-PBOR”.

    An apt definition of mental diarrhea, now the OROP issue is dragged into the argument ,on what basis?only he knows.Confused person.

    Delirious.
    ” All these Western European countries have lived to benefit themselves causing mass genocide, each time with different Excuses.France in Vietnam, Spain in Brazil,Britain in India and Africa, US in the whole of the world follow the exact same pattern of international behavior “.

    This is an argument used against the signing of LSA with the US,although what relevance do France,Spain. Portugal ,Britain & how they behaved in their former colonies,have in common with the LSA remains a mystery. An all out attempt at stereotyping if ever there was one.

    Distortion.
    ” God only knows how many people had to endure pax Americana.Even today our per hectare yeild of wheat is the same as that of Mexico’s in 1965″.

    Instead of finding solutions ,just keep blaming the Americans, using every variety of illogical arguments to drag them into each and every ill that afflicts India.If this is not leftist propaganda what is?

    Blatent twisting of facts.
    “Americans in order to ensure their netagiri made sure that we never had enough capital for anything. It is the same today.we are expected to buy Rafale @ 800 million USD life cycle cost or worse still f35 with 600 million life cycle cost(but with sure and sudden death for our national efforts)but we cannot buy sukhois at less than half the cost”

    Huh?Who stopped us from buying the sukhois?I thought the Rafale was a French product & the US ambassador to India Timothy Roemer prematurely resigned within a day of America losing out in the MMRCA competition. But again he links it to American netagiri. As I said a perplexing thought process using byzantine methods to indulge in America bashing.

    Wake up man,you’ve been exposed to too much leftist propaganda, which is resulting in your incoherent and obsolete arguments.

  28. ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

    Defending my arguments! You have not even challenged them. All you do is write English Essays.
    Who cares for English language skills. If you have facts with you then bring them along. Dekh lete hain.

    🙂 @andy read again, by now I have not just taken down your arguments with links and references, I have also challenged you to find the source documents and finally also taken down your credibility. All in successive and distinct posts designed as such.

    And this latest post where you probably seek some answers, I am afraid it will only create more bile in your belly.

    For example when you could not even find out which think tank is merely raising vacous arguments and which is the one that you may still quote, when the writers thereat, mention something in support of their own claims.

    The one that got quoted was IDSA quoted in support of the writers claims not mine. You really cannot even sift arguments.

    While the think tanks that I have ridiculed and which coincidentally take the exact position that you are taking regards LSA etc. are also similarly available to all. But off course you don’t want to read these. Let us see what view you have on:
    1) the last NSA sitting in Brookings or
    2) some other wanna be think tankers who claim promoting Nehruvian vision for Indian security or
    3) regulars in think tanks who managed to avoid getting any bravery medals even when the whole unit that is permanently in Kashmir and gets several medals or
    4) regulars in foreign think tanks who rant on and on about national projects like LCAs or
    5) think tanks that are housed with a certain kind of people and whose only strong point in favour of LSA is that it will save India 20 million USD in every exercise that is done with US overseas.
    Nearly all of the above kind have worked hard towards ideas like LSA and so called inter-operability when in fact the real reason for this inter-operability waghera is not what we get. Instead the reason we are being chased for inter-operability and CSLs is because India has time and again (SE Asia Tsunami/Nepal earthquake rescues) proved that we have a massive presence and capacity in these parts. Why do you think the LSA is being dressed up as something beneficial for India when in fact it is beneficial for US and instead makes us a laughing stock for the world.

    Similarly what you call Hypocrisy, is actually just a way to give people an idea of the scale (apples to apples). Your own sense of judgment is so impaired that you cannot even see that people are helping you with references and links.

    And your accusation for salivation is even more hilarious. Look @andy, there is no need to salivate for USDs. The sub-primed US economy is sloshing with excess USD they cannot gainfully apply any which way. Hence the Junk bond market for Shale of 500 billion USD, nearly all of which has been killed by Saudi Arabia (a US ally). All the fiat dollars Obama has printed carry a cost and they can feel free to not invest in India. India is in any case banning pharmaceuticals and consumer goods almost at regular basis now. While US is hobbling us on our next big national project on Solar energy front. Significantly the WTO has agreed that the Indian obligations in the Climate summits are not binding and hence the Solar energy industry need not have DCRs.

    You accusation of Ignorance is even more laughable. Have you even one link/resource to offer?

    The absence of choice regarding our WW-2 alliance with the west is your own diwaliapan because it prevents you from accepting the straight fact that the famine was because of the alliance. And that ever since the end of that alliance things have progressively begun to look better.

    What is undeniable is that, that happened and if people are not careful then it would really not matter if the West loves us or not (as you worry). Because this can happen again and in fact in some minor way has already been demonstrated by two IMF guys at the helm in India since last 2 decades.

    And the following is not Innuendo, it is your poverty of skills, that you could not even connect the events properly:
    “In 1947 we only got the freedom to vote ,our economic slavery continued till 1970 & early 1980s & nearly all of it was due to American need for global netagiri”

    I have given you the reference to the role of Morarji budgets and the IG’s humiliation but you chose to ignore the humiliation of the elected leader of India. Congratulations, your kinds are making progress.

    Andy if you think the following is a Delusion, then you can read up the conclusions reached by your own kinds, ever beholden to the West:
    “Do you or don’t you know about the push back by PVNR against the I’ll advised ‘obviously with intent’ reforms of IMF that have since been brought in through the back door”.

    In fact had PVNR really taken all the advise of IMF we would have been like Greece is today.

    And if you think the terrorism actuated by Mautam famine in Mizoram was ‘Paranoid’ then god only can help you. Laldenga was travelling all over the place during those times – Pakistan, China, UK. And Christian influence was the primary drive with liberal help from the Church of England. And the Christian influence was of the Methodists and Pentecostals from both UK and US. The Operation Jericho was named by them as such for a reason. Even during those times and despite all the challenges, India did not end up as a loser ally of the West. Even for those days, there are later mentions, of GoI intel reports, that the Western inspired churches and the terrorists were hand in glove.

    Ridiculous! Outrageous, Convoluted, Incoherent, Delirious, Distortion – Ok andy you passed the English language test. Cheers.

    Now the following really bites you does it not. At least you call it a “Blatent twisting of facts”:
    “Americans in order to ensure their netagiri made sure that we never had enough capital for anything. It is the same today.we are expected to buy Rafale @ 800 million USD life cycle cost or worse still f35 with 600 million life cycle cost(but with sure and sudden death for our national efforts)but we cannot buy sukhois at less than half the cost”

    But you have no counter to it. No references and no links. The costs can be calculated from open source claims and sourcing Western equipment is the cover for LSAs. In fact LSAs etc are supposed to be subservient to FMS etc. And mostly both are promoted by the same set of people in the higher officer class of the armed forces, completely disregarding history and possible future requirements. In fact the whole MMRCA was designed to keep Sukhoi out which had a lesser acquisition as well as a lesser operating cost. And this was achieved with mere handwaving commentary from senior IAF people who would just out of their Musharraf claim that both fulfill different needs without ever stating their ‘needs’. This absence of stated needs itself points to a biased evaluation w.r.t capabilities and eventually it turned out even w.r.t. LCC. And its not like the LCC got messed up with only Rafale. The competent authorities who have yet to refute the reports have been quoted with names that even the LCC costing for PC-7 was badly messed up in favour of Pilatus. The then ACM had thrown such tantrums that it is obvious what his motivations were. If not those tantrums even then this nearly consistent habit of simply forwarding the vendors LCC calculations shows how much the system has been loaded against truthful acquisitons. Why else do you think the current RM has taken such a hard stance on Rafale negotiations.

    With F-35 I admit it is only the Visa slaves who are crying for it but it is obvious why they do that.

    But andy if you have to say something then you have to carry some weight by way of links and references and some really long memory and some amount of idea as to what is currently happening.

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