Incomprehensible position on N-testing

In an interesting Meet on “Revising the N-doctrine”hosted by the Foundation for Integrated National Security headed by Lt Gen DB Shekatkar, former chairman, AEC, Anil Kakodkar, and SK Sikka ex-N weapons group, maintained that there was no need whatsoever for renewed explosive testing if, per Sikka, one has only “evolutionary” weapons in mind to develop rather than “revolutionary” weapons, which will require new tests. Further, Kakodakar mentioned in an aside to me, that simulation and hydronuclear tests, etc. can, more than adequately, replace actual testing. He also denied — and this is a digression — that at least during his tenure in office CAT, Indore, where the Indian Inertial Confinement Fusion  unit is in great disrepair, was in fine fettle, when actually owing to active discouragement, deliberate under-funding, and lack of interest, the ICF had, when Chidambaram headed the DAE 20 years back, already slid into a state of rack and ruin. ICF is integral to fashioning new thermonuclear weapons w/o testing by facilitating miniature fusion explosions using a multitude of laser beams. The most talented scientists in Indore were hounded out, at least one of whom that I know, is right now packing his bags to re-locate to Beijing where he is promised oodles of money, a brand new lab, and a select team of bright local scientists to aid him in his researches in complex networks and similar cutting edge areas!

But to revert to the theme of this post, Sikka during lunch explained to me that in-built scalability in the nuclear and thermonuclear weapons designs tested in 1998 and enhanced simulation techniques together have made testing redundant, and referred to the correlation between the decline in testing generally with the phenomenal rise in computing speeds. He said — and this astonished me — that based on the 1998 data Indian designers could even design “yield-dialed” weapons by, as Sikka said, simply reducing/increasing the fissile material and changing the mass of chemical explosives to set off the fission implosion in the first stage.

In the formal session where a fairly large number of serving military officers were present (perhaps, because of Gen Shekatkar’s proximity to defence minister Manohar Parrikar), I evinced grave doubts about India’s deterrence based on untested weapons and intent to carry on without N-testing by staying, as Kakodkar said, within the limits of the N- deal and other restrictive agreements signed with the US and other states. More worryingly, he was of the view that the empirical data from the six tests conducted so far by India and enhanced analytics (simulation, high computing speeds) were sufficient to preempt testing.

As evidence of how closely the Indian military thinking hews to the reigning political view however unstrategic, were the statements made by two recently retired military officers on one of the panels. The army man (LtG Ravi Dastane) talked up the virtues of not “rocking the nuclear boat”; the naval person (RADM S Shrikhande), more sensible, nevertheless mentioned shaping a “minimum deterrent” for a 2-front N-war w/o outlining the force structure he had in mind.

In an offline conversation, Kakodkar revealed to me that the Meghalaya uranium reserves estimated at “tens of thousand of tons”, relatively “rich” in uranium constituting some 1% of the ore, were prevented from being strip-mined by a combine of unscrupulous local politicians eager to extract/extort large sums as royalty and extraneous payments, Christian missionary orgs, and environmental NGOs. That GOI cannot at a stroke remove all hindrances at state level by declaring it a strategic resource and imperative, indicates the degree of infirm political will. Kakodkar stated that Ur is fairly abundant in Andhra but is  less rich (0.5%), and that infrastructure is under construction to mine and refine Rare Earth Elements — now that China is slowly strangling RRE flow to the outside world from sources on the Tibetan plateau.

Kakodkar also disclosed that Modi’s government had approved the setting up of ten  Indian designed and developed natural uranium fueled 700MW Pressurized Heavy Water Reactors all over the country. He was not clear where the money for these power projects would come from, and was not convincing in refuting my assertion that there’d be paucity of funds for the indigenous 700MW plants because of the priority accorded the purchase of imported American, French and Russian enriched uranium reactors by the Manmohan Singh government and now the Modi regime.

About Bharat Karnad

Senior Fellow in National Security Studies at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi, he was Member of the (1st) National Security Advisory Board and the Nuclear Doctrine-drafting Group, and author, among other books of, 'Nuclear Weapons and Indian Security: The Realist Foundations of Strategy', 'India's Nuclear Policy' and most recently, 'Why India is Not a Great Power (Yet)'. Educated at the University of California (undergrad and grad), he was Visiting Scholar at Princeton University, University of Pennsylvania, the Shanghai Institutes of International Studies, and Henry L. Stimson Center, Washington, DC.
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51 Responses to Incomprehensible position on N-testing

  1. vivek shahay says:

    Do you believe what Sikka said regarding N testing ? India does’t have powerful computers like US and CHINA to carryout precise simulations, hence his argument doesn’t seems convincing .Apart from this, US ,Russia and CHINA already started research in Antimatter (bomb) , India is not even thinking about it.

  2. China to Reveal Prototype of World’s First Exascale Supercomputer this Year
    Arthur Dominic Villasanta | Feb 07, 2017 08:07 AM EST

  3. Lots of shouting, tiny stick

    Donald Trump won’t be winning any wars against Islamist terror if he imagines dismantling the Russia-China-Iran alliance is possible. His saber-rattling against Iran is pointless

  4. Karnad sir, Please cover Iran – Boeing deal. Iran blackmails US.

    • apna says:

      Iran blackmail usa ?
      Do you live in this universe ?

      • The Trump administration has merely expanded the sanctions in place. It is a cosmetic move. Defence Secretary James Mattis promptly calmed the nerves by saying, “I don’t see any need to increase the number of forces we have in the Middle East at this time. That’s not in the cards right now. We always have the capability to do so, but right now I don’t think it’s necessary.” The White House has also kept Boeing’s $16 billion civilian aircraft deal with Iran (which would generate an estimated 100,000 jobs in the US aerospace value stream) out of the purview of sanctions.

        Tehran reads the tea leaves carefully and its reaction has been rhetorical. Tehran would have drawn certain conclusions regarding Trump’s motivations. The establishment newspaper Iran Daily today featured a commentary that Israel is triggering and manipulating the US-Iran tensions for its own purposes. It is an entirely plausible scenario.

  5. raja says:

    resp sir,
    Pl. convince the scientist to stay in India.

    • Have tried my damndest; even approached persons who influence relevant policies to accommodate him, but met with little luck. When your own country is unwilling to acknowledge, appreciate, and reward talent what are the talented but under-appreciated to do — and here I am not talking about the usual IIT type but someone quite extraordinary.

      • raja says:

        Pakistan’s hatred towards India is deep rooted prima facie.The perseverance it shows need to be taken seriously.
        Pakistan, when isolation is forced on them either globally or regionally may turn momentum towards India, particularly J&K so as to maintain its current power structure.Supported well by China both in conventional hardware and in nuclear arms it is expected to maintain the status quo in the coming decades with the ultimate aim being the snatching of J&K from India.The recent raising of the Indus water treaty would have made pakistan restless about its future.The past and recent attacks in Afghanistan points to the Pakistan’s desire to establish control and dominate the sunni muslim middle-eastern countries through its pre-eminent nuclearisation.It’s to be noted that recently diplomats of a foreign country were killed blatantly in an attack in Afghanistan.It reveals the developing true nature of the pakistani establishment.
        The middle east countries may not chide pakistan due to the larger identity, brotherhood and technology they may get from it in the long run.Its geographical position also favours it a lot particularly for the construction of energy pipelines towards the east.Hence pakistan is most sought after than India.

        As long as India’s conventional deterrence’s at a critical high level and supplemented with some nuclear arsenal the chinese will not risk a confrontation with us.They will continue to use pakistan as the proxy to bleed India and try to keep us always in an unnerving condition.India will be forced towards heavy military expenditure in the coming years planning for a two front war! War preparedness is required against one country atleast all times but not against all countries all the times! Add to this the political changes that may happen to our island neighbnour!
        Once the aircraft carrier’s are ready the chinese will field atleast one CBG for each side of India.Hence in the future once the chinese naval side is strengthend well and pakistan is supplied with the yuan submarines India will have to face up with tremendous pressure.

        India’s political structure is different vis-a-vis China and Pakistan. The former is a strictly authoritarian regime while the latter is run by the military. Sandwiched between these two and under the musical chair dispensations India’s position will come under heavy pressure in the coming years.The chinese will keep a sizable troop strength in pakistan in the future which will complicate India’s response to pakistan’s provocations.Earlier, technological innovations were highly restricted hence India enjoyed a qualitative and quantitative edge. But with the advent of chinese manufacturing and reverse engineering (illegal elements included) technological saturation is happening at a fast rate. Hence India alone can’t claim technical superiority with its neighbours. Notice the Airpower difference then between India and China,pakistan and now.Technological mutation results in advanced weaponry available at affordable costs to our adversaries which hastens the saturation and reduces the qualitative edge which India enjoyed earlier.

        The US & Russia need to be persuaded to focus more on the security of Afghanistan and institution development there to make Afghanistan less vulnerable to pakistan’s designs.Militarily Afghanistan need to be secured well which India alone cannot do.US or Russian assistance is certainly required or Iran.

        To shatter pakistan’s confidence, to regain POK,to create confusion and weaken the Chinese, India should take military action against pakistan at an opportune time when the chinese are embroiled with the SCS issue. This will serve many purposes. With a firm US assistance Pakistan may be the right ground to counter china. In that process Balochistan may also be freed and the longer term weakening of paksitan may be initiated. Instead of facing two threats simultaneously we need to remove the pakistan threat first. It will lead to the weakening of the chinese influence on pakistan and will also send a strong message to chinese.

        India should step up covert and subversive operations inside pakistan. Balochistan need to be separated on the lines of Bangladesh. India missed the opportunity to bomb the kathua reactor then. We are now paying the price for this every day through the life of our jawans.Notice that the pakistan’s threatening voice and position growing louder by the day! and world powers not interested in condemning it rather than they are ready to sell further arms and improve their economies! Certainly we can’t satisfy all the world powers by giving them contracts for arms purchase and increasing the qualitative level of conflict into the future.Clearly this is unsustainable particularly against two adversaries which are strategically linked against India.

        Chinese defence relationship with India’s neighbours always has a trade angle. They always mix defence and trade (read selling hardware) which is why none of our neighbours say no to chinese weapon systems or defence or logistic arrangements with china.India need to improve enormously on this front. Contrast this with our approach of mainly providing only training to other’s armed forces and buying diplomatic support and non supply assurances through our arms purchase.When they gain market like this they get funds for further research and strategic military advantages.Notice that an african country wishes to purchase jf17 as a repeat customer after using f7 from china earlier which itself was a copy of mig21.

        Weakening china’s trade is not the aim of the article but pakistan in all spheres should be the aim. The military option needs to be seriously considered inspite of nuclear blackmail by pakistan.

    • ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

      None of the establishment walas in that meeting would ever own upto the simple question as to their respective roles in making India lag behind China. They will speak about everything under the sun but not this basic query. A funding/ToT for a pet project is enough to buy most of them out.

      If people can go to USA for higher studies or R&D because India cannot offer space in these areas then there is no reason why Indians cannot be allowed to go over to China.

      Point is does China really need Indians in their R&D. Most of the NRIs who went over to the West are doing menial jobs, better paid, but menial only.

      • &^%$#@! says:

        The deliberate stymieing of the Tejas project, fear of testing the A-5 and K-4 to full range, ……all add up to complete and total surrender. The Indian establishment has perpetrated a “Nuclear Munich”.

  6. &^%$#@! says:

    WRT: ” …one has only “evolutionary” weapons in mind to develop rather than “revolutionary” weapons…” how does Sikka define the terms “evolutionary” and “revolutionary”? Are “revolutionary” weapons those that only exist in the imaginations of a select band of “extrodinary” people? WRT: “…and referred to the correlation between the decline in testing generally with the phenomenal rise in computing speeds…”, this is because the P-5 have all the necessary test data they need.

  7. &^%$#@! says:

    The Indian INDU PHWR is among the best in the world. China is now selling the inferior Hualong One reactor to the UK (Bradwell):
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/09/15/china-to-build-nuclear-reactor-in-essex-after-hinkley-deal-appro/
    Imagine what India could have done if the powers-that-be in Delhi were more concerned with India and less concerned with getting Green Cards and US Citizenships.

  8. Rituraj Rao says:

    Professor,
    Sometimes your articles are so depressing ! Problem is when you see things going in the wrong direction and can’t do a thing.
    Reminds me of my best friend and hostel roommate, he was judged best scholar in Applied Physics, twice in India but DRDO refused to consider him because his 10+2 marks were not enough for them. Anyway, he got two offers after his PhD, one from NASA- MAVEN lab and another from Japanese and finally landed in Japan. Who lost, doesn’t need an answer !!!

  9. Ram Natarajan says:

    Sir,

    How can you trust simulation when it comes to really important assets? Even the Kaveri engine would work perfectly in simulation. One can only have certainty when you build and test an actual one – models are only approximate representations of reality.

    • Absolutely. Now try convincing Kakodkar, Sikka and their successors in DAE and those influenced by such thinking in GOI, with so obvious and commonsensical a take.

      • apna says:

        What nuclear deal _The one which was pushed by unelectable Imposed Pm mm singh a known American asset ?
        That same disgusting man made sure that India buys all cr-p spy infested Anglo American kinks in military.
        He also made sure that Indian missile do not go far enough.

    • &^%$#@! says:

      It is said that KS wanted to sign the CTBT and even not have the Shakti tests citing the adequacy of simulations. Now one can see the type of people who’ve occupied positions of power.

  10. &^%$#@! says:

    @BK: Each time a uranium deposit is found, a X-ian or environmental NGO turns up. The same is true for strategic installations. Why doesn’t the GoI do something about this? To cite President Putin on minorities:
    http://waltwhitemansworld.blogspot.in/2015/06/say-what-you-will-about-putin-he-speaks.html

    Trump who is another great leader has openly stated which religion is in charge in the US. Hinduism is the greatest religion ever. It’s gifts to mankind are countless. Yet, we see this happening:
    https://twitter.com/mediacrooks?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

    • OK. But Muslims are and have been part of the woof and weave of Indian society; so not analogous.

      • &^%$#@! says:

        @BK: And I suppose the criminal atrocities against Hindus and sabotage of strategic Indian projects is also part of the “woof and weave” of Indian society?

      • But sabotage of strategic projects is done by mainstream politicians and the policy estbalishment, not Indian Muslims, for God’s sake.

      • &^%$#@! says:

        I mean evangelical and environmental NGO’s stopping the mining of uranium and demonstrating and creating a ruckus everytime a strategic installation is built up. Recall the role of these elements during the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant demonstrations.

      • apna says:

        Most of the sabotage against Indian strategic assets has been done by Punjabi in last 20 years starting with unelected pm mm singh the American asset.

  11. Shrikhande says:

    Mr Karnad, Contrary to what you have attributed to me in your comments, I spoke about moving away from the idea of a min credible deterrent.. The matter of outlining the structure needed for a simultaneous two front nuclear deterrent could not have been covered in the time allocated and it was more necessary to cover some other aspects, in my view. My essence was of much increased robustness of all structures, esp the sea based leg, and hard thinking on ambiguity as well as NFU.
    RADM (retd)

    • My short point was you did not outline the deterrent structure for 2-front situation owing, as you say, to the shortage of time. So, not sure how I misrepresented what you said. In any case, minimum deterrencewallahs claim that a small nuclear force can also be robust, so the robustness metric is not synonymous with larger, more potent, nuclear forces necessary to meet the China threat.

      • Atul says:

        @BK
        Whenever Chinese talk about their nuclear deterrence, they believe in a clear policy explained in a standard phrase ‘credible and effective deterrence’. However, when it comes to India, the semantic jugglery between ‘credible minimum’ to ‘minimum credible’ deterrence creates a ambiguous and rather, timid policy. What exactly India means by this ?

      • Atul@ — The draft-doctrine says “credible minimum deterrence”. About the gazetted version of the doctrine, I don’t know.

    • Shaurya says:

      RADM Shri Shrikhande: Why not take the opportunity and publish a piece detailing your thoughts. There are many laymen, who would like to know the views of those in the military on the issue. Specifically how as a military man as you see the force structure. You are retired now, so why worry about political preferences and foreign agreements. What we expect from our military is an unabashed military viewpoint towards what you need for deterrence and as once CoSC/CNS Arun Prakash once called needed for “escalation dominance”? Thanks.

  12. &^%$#@! says:

    I feel the words minimum and deterrent and contradictory to each other. A country either has a deterrent, or it doesn’t. The useless talk of “exercising restraint” and NFU are just to hoodwink the illiterate hoi polloi. The task of a credible deterrent is to make any prospective foe exercise restraint, and NOT the country possessing the deterrent. India’s “pussyfooting” around the hard questions (a typically Indian habit) has in fact deterred nobody.

    Let’s take the recent Indian temper tantrum about matter in the UN concerning the terrorist Hafiz Saeed. It was Jaswant Singh the FM of the NDA-1 regime of “India Shining” fame led by Bharat Ratna AVP who set this terrorist free. Granted it was done under duress, but the deed was done with the tacit approval of Bharat Ratna AVP and his august cabinet. Opportunities to stop the a/c on Indian soil were messed up. Nobody was punished.

    Then came the Bombay terrorist attacks with Hafiz Saeed’s direct involvement. India went around the world squawking about Hafiz Saeed and the LeT. To assuage the wailing and impotent Indian power structure, the US “magnanimously” slapped a USD 10 million bounty on Saeed and his brother-in-law in April 2003. Despite the numerous drones and other assets the US has/had in Af-Pak, precious little was done to erase Saeed by India’s “strategic ally”.

    If India feels so strongly about the terrorist Hafiz Saeed, it should end his odious existence through its own means either covertly or by direct military action, and dare Pakistan to do its worst. Meaningless squawking in international forums just makes India a target of further ridicule and scorn. Perhaps, this is what the PMO and the MEA considers as “high strategy”. So much for the potency of India’s deterrent!

    • &^%$#@! says:

      TYPO CORRECTION
      ___________________
      The first sentence in the above post should read as:
      “I feel the words minimum and deterrent are contradictory to each other”

    • &^%$#@! says:

      TYPO CORRECTION-2
      _____________________
      References to Atal Bihari Vajpayee in the above post should read as “Bharat Ratna ABV” and NOT “Bharat Ratna AVP”. My apologies for this typo.

  13. Vihan says:

    Dear Bharat,

    I find it quite comical that “scientists” are using superfluous words like “revolutionary”, “evolutionary”, etc. instead of quantifiable values – we are discussing the results of any experiment after all.

    I am guessing that both the Dr.’s they stuck to their claim about having 175-200 kT capability. Did you ask them point bank if we have enough data to make a 3 MT warhead small enough for the proposed Agni MIRV payloads as our competition is China?

    On a step further, did the two gentlemen say anything should be looking at competing at 15-20+ MT ranges which we clearly do not have data for, which is what we need to be with the big boys in the great power club?

    Thanks and Regards,

    -vihan

    • ~!@#$%^&*()_+ says:

      @Vihan, a minor nitpick but may be it will help in assessing where the red-lines are drawn for India and how to track the roles people play w.r.t. those red-lines.

      An admiral who later on admitted that he changed his views about LEMOA with just one visit to USA had educated the country about the ‘capability’ to make the 500 kt weapons. Off course he never said if that would be a 2 stage TN or an MR-41 FBF french type device. That may mean that the Americans see India boxed into that level of 1960s tech. The difference will be felt in the total investments to be made in the deterrence with the two technology paths is also something that the admiral chose not to touch upon.

      R. Chidambram etc. have admitted that their S-1 device can go upto 200-250 kt TN (cannot comment on confidence levels at those KTs). At those levels off course Vajpayee capitulated as his personal best.

      So the 3 MT you mention or the 10-20 MT you wish for is not even acknowledged in the Strategic community as something worth discussing. There have been claims, I think by BK also, that there is a unitary 1.5 MT device on early Agnis but even that is likely to be a FBF.

      The growth barriers that India has to break today is the barrier that seeks to stop us at 250 KT and the game is so heavily loaded against India that between 45 Kt to 250 Kt the confidence is only and completely theoretical (actually just a claim, completely unsubstantiated).

      • Vihan — And no, nowhere in any of my books or elsewhere in my writings have I said that there’s an MT device in Indian arsenal in any form. What I have been advocating — originally in my ‘Nuclear Weapons and Indian Security” published in 2002 and since, is the necessity for India to have genuine MT weapons to gain at least “notional parity” with China, whence the absolute need to resume open-ended testing until this objective is achieved to the satisfaction of not just the scientists, but the military (assuming the Indian armed services have their wits about them and the competence to distinguish between fluff and facts which, alas, I doubt).

    • Vihan — yes asked both point blank — neither responded other than Kakodkar saying that there was enough “empirical” stuff and the analytic tools to configure high yield weapons. Neither mentioned MT weapons of any yield.

      • Mr Karnad,

        On what basis do Militaries around the world determine whether the Bomb given to them actually works. Do Indian defence forces have capability to independently asses whether the weapon is what it is supposed to be? So if scientists tell them these are the parameters that simulated weapon test result reveal and the military can then assess if the weapon is good enough works etc. How do they go about doing this? They never get to test the weapon themself.

      • primeargument@ — Refer my reply to another Q on this post. The Indian military lacks the competence because, unlike in US, Russian, Chinese, and even Pakistani nuclear weapons programmes, there is no specialist nuclear officer cadres in the three Indian Services, who are in on drawing up the specs and supervising, as happens with SPD, Chaklala, the actual designing, development, and testing of nuclear weapons (in the Pak case, with major Chinese nuclear weapons ToT and other help and material assistance). My suggestion (in my writings) that such a cadre be established was taken up in earnest by the Navy, or so I was told a few years back by the then CNS, ADM Joshi. AF and Army are still to act in this respect.

  14. &^%$#@! says:

    @Vihan, @~!@#$%^&*()_+, etc……:

    Forget about pipe dreams such as India’s strategic deterrent etc. When matters degenerate to the level described in the below link, its time to get on with ones life in the best, most productive, and most honorable and honest way one can, and care only for oneself and ones loved ones:

    https://www.thequint.com/currency-ban/2016/12/14/did-usaid-suspected-of-cia-link-push-india-cashless-drive-demonetisation-jan-dhan-narendra-modi-raw-cia

  15. apna says:

    when the BJP govt of neaolieralism type was sounbdly defeated in 2004 the media immediately started saying that economic policy must remain the same-though it wasclear that e Indian public had given verdict aghasint so called glaoblization. but the media propaganda made sure that n UNELCTAED PERSON WHO ENTERED PARLAIMENT THROUGH BACK DOOR IS SELECTED AS PRIME MINSITER. THAT MAN MOHAN SINGH HAS BEEN AN AMERICAN AGENT DID HELP A LOT.

    NOW WE KNOW HOW THE AGENDA OF THIS TRAITOR MANMOHAN SINGH HAS BEEN FOLLOWED TO THE LETTER THOUGH HE IS NOT A LEADER OF PARTY OR COUNTRY AOR OF MEN.

    THE SaME WAY WGHILE THE CONGRESS HAD BEEN DEFEATED IN AN ELELCTION 10 YEARS AGO-THE BJP WHICH CAME ON PLATFORM OF ANTI GLAOBALIZATION HAD TO CHANGE TACK WITHIN 5 DAYS.
    THE MEDIA SAID THAT FINANCE MISNTER SHOULD BE THE SAME PRO WEST PRO GLAOBALIZATION MAN,

    THE INDIAN PUBLIC HAS BEEN BOOTING OUT THE GOVTS. AFTER GOVTS. AS TERM EXPIRES BECAUSE INDIAN PUBLIC DOES NOT WANT SO CALLED

    LIBERALIZATION AND PIRATE CAPITALIST SUYTEM BUT THE POLITICANS INT EH PAY PACKET OF BUSIENSS MEN AND MEDIA BEING PIMPS OF CAPITAL HAVE BEEN

    NULLYIFYING TH ELECTION RESULT FOR LAST 15 YEARS.

    THIS SYSTEM WAS BROUGHT TO INDIA BY THE AMERICAN AGENT MANOHANS SINGH WHO BRIBED THE MPS TO KEEP THE NEAO LIBERAL AGENDA OF HIS UNCLELCTABLE GOVT. BOth IN 1993 and 2008.

    such people swear a lot by democracy aswell.!!

    What that has done to the indian elelction process is that it has made the result of Indian elelction as farce as of any american or

    british elelction result. During 60s and 70s and even 80s the Indian masses used to celebrate elcetion time as a festival of choice -the

    people power to take account of the polictiicans -therefore there was a large turn out of people in voting. but having seen that even after
    toppling the govt. the new govt from oppositon is made to act just like previous one-looking after interest of business class and corrupt traders-the Indian public is getting tired of voting and the voting tally is going down from 85% to 65 %. this is exactly what the corrupot business class want-the people to be depoliticised.
    and that is the tactics the Indian corrupt business sclass has imported from britian and usa.

    7th october, 2008

    even after the obvious faliure of free markeeters in america this americna gen manmonan singh ( a person who is not only unlelected but unelectable-he sttod for lower house of parliament but was throughly defeated by the elctorate-then he entered parliament through uppwer house-like house of lords from where he is not supposed to become prime minsiter at all-but law was circumvented for him) such is the democracy we are talking about) not been killed frhh treason but also not chastised
    this manmhan singh is a charlaton whose theory fits with fit with Milton Friedman’s “greed is good” Chicago School mumbo jumbo. Both Friedman and Kemp believe that what is good for the stock market is good for America, ignoring the shocking economic polarization that has divided the nation. Now, more and more people are beginning to see that Friedman was a charlatan who provided ideological cover for obscenely rich financiers and their dodgy investment scams.

  16. apna says:

    march, 2007

    –this unelectable (and three times defeated in democratic elections ) so called prime minieter manmohan singh is a blot on the face of democratic india. he is there aonbly because the anglosaxon powers wanted him there instead of sonia gandhi(who wouldnot have been that maelelable to english speaking world-master race as this stooge manmohan is). this manmohan singh has been very unpopular in democratic election losing even when there was a wave in favour of congress. he has not even let pujab select his d=congress pqarty for assembley election in 2007 so mucn unpol;ular he is. but he is very popular amnost the anglosaxon media and govert. therefore he is popular amonst the english media and all the angloamerican stooges theat you find in any thirld world aka allwi,Ahmed Chalabi(of iraqi traitor fame) mubarak types.

    manmohan singh is a yeltsin of india-very pouilar amonst enemies of india exactly because he has sold india cheap to thse amngloamericn interests.
    now the idito indian elites are pro=jecting this imbecile manmohan singh as some intelecutal -whoever heard of e=an economist as a scintist or intellectual espceaccilly the economist who foolws voddo ecnomy of chaicago school?
    even granted someone is educated what thse iditot elites of india are saying is that a geek with =zero personality and nil oratory power with no public fowwlloping should become a leader of 1.2billion people without being unecleted or despite losing elelction in genral elelctions. three times.

    ofcourse with no personality and a rote knowledge of chicago peudo-economics this imposter on indian poilctical scene is a cancer to the very name of democracy and decency.he is very very dishonet-he lies at he drop of hat (indo american nuyclear pact, indians defence procurements, agricultrual disaster inside india -which caters to 75% of indian population0.), this manamohsn singh has papuperized india and weakned the idnian defence forces.
    During the period from 1992 onwards the indian defence forces has weakened to one third of its ablity during this traitors helm at finance minsitry and primeministreship.
    this fellow has made indian air force virtually a camel air force.manmohan singh is responsible for tracherous indo nuclear pact and for dragging his feet over delay procumrent to indian air force jsut to please his real masters the angloamerican interests.

    22.4.2007–“JE Menon wrote:
    Despite the mountain of criticism our babus in the MEA take, overall I believe they have done a pretty good job over the past two decades in particular.

    I don’t know who has said what on this issue w.r.t. the babus, but speaking for myself, I trust the babus. It’s the PM I don’t trust.

    Sorry to say this so bluntly, but MMS is a hell of a wishy-washy, weak-seeming fellow, and I think there are solid grounds, based on the publicly available record alone, to think that he would have bungled massively by now, if not for the senior bureaucrats/brass in the areas involved. To wit:

    * If not for the vociferous public statements by General JJ Singh opposing the plan, MMS would have given away Siachen, as a “goodwill gesture” to Pakistan (under US pressure of course). Thank God for the generals and the military brass.

    * If not for the vociferous public statements by AK (and many others, including President AK and the BJP), MMS would have long ago signed up to a lousy nuke deal very damaging to India’s long term national interests.”

    “I am not saying MMS is a traitor (such claims are nonsense), but that he is a dreamer with his head in the clouds, and not in touch with the vicious real world. He is a bloody economist, and he thinks that economic policy is the be-all and end-all of national security. It seems he genuinely believes that who controls Siachen is irrelevant, nuclear weapons are irrelevant (maybe he himself is a sincerely-believing NPA). I am still furious at him for (apparently) authorising the trashing/bad-mouthing of Indian nuclear scientists for the last two years. The two AKs (Anil Kakodkar and Abdul Kalam) have been profiles in courage; Shekhar Gupta and his DIM (Dork Indian Media) fellow-travellers have been disgraceful.”

    may 2nd ,1998.

    Manmohan singh,former finance minister, what is he, if not clear by now with his previous anti-india policy had been clear ,then it should become cristal clear with his recent questioning in Rajya Sabha on 15 th dec. The prime minister was giving statement on nuclear talk with america(which he should not have entered into with america anyway). As Indian policy has been defence and incoherent,He was telling about minimum nuclear deterent that India must have to which this manmohan singh asked what is the limit of minimum nuclear deterence. As if to open all the cards and play into america’s hand, Manmohan singh was playing part of American interest’ agent. It is the same manmohan singh who some congressmen are saying is more keen than the govt. to get lateset Insurance and patent bill( to sell out to anglo-american interest)passed by the Parliament. In stead of waiting for world situation till 2002(which is bound to change) Manmohan singh is keen to see that America’s interest is served quickly. Tragedy is that this sort of person, and likes of Yaswant singh-foreign minister-who can not win a single mandate from people in democratic election,are the people made to hold important ofiice asnd ofcourse Anglo-americans like that because deviod of public support and democratic mandate, such peoples are ideal agents of anglo-American interest. All those so called reform under manmohan singh -which was supposed to do exactly opposte of what it did(example of latin america was already there) is still beieng pursued on the same logic under this American spy. Even the lesson of east asia has not been learnt. Those who talk big and bostfill in India must remember that far from being some economic power , If pursuing the same sell out of India, the country will take 50 years to reach the prosprity enjoyed by brazilian elite but will have debt and total loss of sovernity in economic and foriegn policy with in 10 years.

    By the way in response to American spys'(manmohan singh)question as to what constitute Minimum nuclear deterence for India the Prime minister should have assured that it would be such that in case of attack, as in bagdad, by the anglo-American goons,India will have effective nuclear and convention weopon to hit at targets in england and united states. Only ,and then only will have India effective deterence.
    In last 16 years India has had no strong leaderhip or
    govt; and the
    result (for those who have brain to see) is for all to see-The foreigners in
    name of liberalization and globalization have come back with vehemence and
    are exploiting india and other countries. If England can sell rotten, viral
    infected british meat in name of support british products; if america
    supports her own rubbish car in name of buy american then what right have

    • The Trump administration has merely expanded the sanctions in place. It is a cosmetic move. Defence Secretary James Mattis promptly calmed the nerves by saying, “I don’t see any need to increase the number of forces we have in the Middle East at this time. That’s not in the cards right now. We always have the capability to do so, but right now I don’t think it’s necessary.” The White House has also kept Boeing’s $16 billion civilian aircraft deal with Iran (which would generate an estimated 100,000 jobs in the US aerospace value stream) out of the purview of sanctions.

      Tehran reads the tea leaves carefully and its reaction has been rhetorical. Tehran would have drawn certain conclusions regarding Trump’s motivations. The establishment newspaper Iran Daily today featured a commentary that Israel is triggering and manipulating the US-Iran tensions for its own purposes. It is an entirely plausible scenario.

  17. apna says:

    ofcourse with no personality and a rote knowledge of chicago peudo-economics this imposter on indian poilctical scene is a cancer to the very name of democracy and decency.he is very very dishonet-he lies at he drop of hat (indo american nuyclear pact, indians defence procurements, agricultrual disaster inside india -which caters to 75% of indian population0.), this manamohsn singh has papuperized india and weakned the idnian defence forces.
    During the period from 1992 onwards the indian defence forces has weakened to one third of its ablity during this traitors helm at finance minsitry and primeministreship.
    this fellow has made indian air force virtually a camel air force.manmohan singh is responsible for tracherous indo nuclear pact and for dragging his feet over delay procumrent to indian air force jsut to please his real masters the angloamerican interests.

    involved. To wit:

    * If not for the vociferous public statements by General JJ Singh opposing the plan, MMS would have given away Siachen, as a “goodwill gesture” to Pakistan (under US pressure of course). Thank God for the generals and the military brass.

    * If not for the vociferous public statements by AK (and many others, including President AK and the BJP), MMS would have long ago signed up to a lousy nuke deal very damaging to India’s long term national interests.”

    “I am not saying MMS is a traitor (such claims are nonsense), but that he is a dreamer with his head in the clouds, and not in touch with the vicious real world. He is a bloody economist, and he thinks that economic policy is the be-all and end-all of national security. It seems he genuinely believes that who controls Siachen is irrelevant, nuclear weapons are irrelevant (maybe he himself is a sincerely-believing NPA). I am still furious at him for (apparently) authorising the trashing/bad-mouthing of Indian nuclear scientists for the last two years. The two AKs (Anil Kakodkar and Abdul Kalam) have been profiles in courage; Shekhar Gupta and his DIM (Dork Indian Media) fellow-travellers have been disgraceful

    • In what can only be seen as a development invested with symbolism — at least in its sheer timing – Russian president’s special envoy on Syria Alexander Lavrentiev is traveling to Tehran today. Prima facie, Lavrentiev will hold consultations with Iran’s powerful Secretary to the Supreme National Security Council, Ali Shamkhani, on the eve of the first meeting in Astana tomorrow of the ‘trilateral mechanism’ of Russia, Iran and Turkey regarding the monitoring of ceasefire and separation of opposition groups from the extremist groups.

      The consultations in Tehran will focus on the further deepening of the all-round Russian-Iranian cooperation to end the Syrian crisis. However, discussions on regional developments are expected as well. Lavrentiev’s trip underlines the high importance of Iran for Russia as its partner in Syria even while the US has ratcheted up tensions with Iran and has imposed fresh sanctions. Clearly, Moscow disagrees with Washington’s perspective on Iran.

      Moscow is also likely making a move on the chessboard. Earlier last week, Washington condemned Russia in regard of latest flare-up in eastern Ukraine and President Trump made a big gesture by telephoning President Petro Poroshenko on Saturday to assure him of US support, while also promising to take up current developments with Moscow.Trump chose to ignore the Kremlin narrative when Russian President Vladimir Putin squarely blamed Kiev for the spurt in violence. Putin had told the media on Thursday:

      Why is this happening now?.. First, the Ukrainian leadership needs money, and the best way to drum up some money is to go to the European Union, individual countries of Europe, the United States, or international financial institutions, posing as a victim of aggression… Second, as we all know, during the presidential campaign in the United States, the Ukrainian government adopted a unilateral position in favour of one candidate. More than that, certain oligarchs, certainly with the approval of the political leadership, funded this candidate, or female candidate, to be more precise. Now they need to improve relations with the current administration… and thus establish a dialogue.

      In the wake of the utter failure of economic and social policies, the internal opposition has stepped up its activities and needs to be shut up. It is also necessary to rally the people around the current leaders… I think that the current Ukrainian government is not at all willing to implement the Minsk agreements and is just looking for an excuse not to do so. The resumption of the conflict would serve that purpose.

      However, Iran issue cannot be linked to Ukraine. Iran-US relations is of fundamental importance to regional security and stability in the Middle East. Tehran has seen many American presidents come and go in the past few decades since the Islamic Revolution in 1979. Tehran largely outwitted them. The Trump administration lacks the means to coerce the Iranian regime to do anything. Dozens of US military bases are vulnerable to Iran’s missile strikes. The US has no means to neutralise Iran’s capability to wage ‘asymmetric war’, either.

      Over and above, even if the Trump administration commits a hundred thousand ground troops in the region, Tehran can make sure that their missions flounder – be it in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon or Afghanistan. On the other hand, without Iran’s cooperation, US might as well forget about defeating the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. Iran has lived with US sanctions ever since the 1979 revolution and Trump’s sanctions do not bring anything new.

      The Trump administration has merely expanded the sanctions in place. It is a cosmetic move. Defence Secretary James Mattis promptly calmed the nerves by saying, “I don’t see any need to increase the number of forces we have in the Middle East at this time. That’s not in the cards right now. We always have the capability to do so, but right now I don’t think it’s necessary.” The White House has also kept Boeing’s $16 billion civilian aircraft deal with Iran (which would generate an estimated 100,000 jobs in the US aerospace value stream) out of the purview of sanctions.

      Tehran reads the tea leaves carefully and its reaction has been rhetorical. Tehran would have drawn certain conclusions regarding Trump’s motivations. The establishment newspaper Iran Daily today featured a commentary that Israel is triggering and manipulating the US-Iran tensions for its own purposes. It is an entirely plausible scenario.

      The bottom line is that as House Speaker Paul Ryan wryly noted, Trump has decided not to tear up the Iran nuclear deal. Trump would have concluded that even a bad deal is better than no nuclear deal. Indeed, the UN has also given the verdict that Iran has not violated the terms of the Iran deal. Europe will most certainly disagree if Trump now pushes the envelope.

      Tehran is sure to do some grandstanding of its own now – say, by conducting more missile tests or letting loose a volley of high-grade rhetoric. But it will be a measured reaction. Trump doesn’t have to respond, because he has not spelt out any ‘red lines’. Trump merely said that Iran is playing with fire. That can mean anything – or, most likely nothing.

      Posted in Diplomacy, Politics.

      Tagged with Iran nuclear deal, Islamic State, US-Iran.

      No comments »
      By M K Bhadrakumar – February 5, 2017

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